# Have "wired" fighting scenes in martial arts ruined the entire genre? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 11, 2004, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-wired-fighting-scenes-in-martial-arts-ruined-the-entire-genre/233629 "2004-03-11T03:57:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Carnac\_the\_Magnificent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Carnac\_the\_Magnificent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carnac_the_Magnificent)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2004, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-wired-fighting-scenes-in-martial-arts-ruined-the-entire-genre/233629/21 "2004-03-11T14:09:24Z")
> [@Number Six](#): > > I agree. When it was released, American audiences had never seen anything like it before. Now audiences who care for such films have seen a lot more of them, and a great many of them better than _Enter the Dragon_. Jet Li’s _Fist of Legend_ is a remake of Bruce Lee’s _Fist of Fury_ (_The Chinese Connection_ in the US) and is better in every way than the original. First, let me thank everyone for the insightful replies. As usual, I’m learning many things. Regarding Bruce Lee’s films, I can’t help but look back at them and sigh over the lost possibilities. He clearly was a historic martial arts talent, yet three of four of his films were terrible in most every way. Enter the Dragon, IMHO, remains the only really good film. The Chinese Connection and Fist of Fury are an abomination. It would be interesting to know how Less would have weighed in on the current wire craze… ---
**Author:** ![Khadaji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Khadaji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khadaji)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2004, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-wired-fighting-scenes-in-martial-arts-ruined-the-entire-genre/233629/22 "2004-03-11T15:23:30Z")
> [@BraheSilver](#): > > Honestly, I think it stunk when Jackie Chan started doing it. I mean, the whole point of Chan’s work was that _that was all him,_ man! No special effects! And when he does it, it detracts from the whole Jackie Chan image. I’m not a huge fan of Jackie Chan. But I remember seeing outtakes of some of his stunts and say “Damn, that man _earns_ his money!” In one he jumped from the roof of one building to the balcony of another without a wire or a net. It scared me just watching, let alone having to do it… ---
**Author:** ![js\_africanus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/87869e/32.png) [@js\_africanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/js_africanus)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2004, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-wired-fighting-scenes-in-martial-arts-ruined-the-entire-genre/233629/23 "2004-03-11T16:36:48Z")
> [@Drastic](#): > > I think of wire-fu as being parallel to use of cg effects–both are easy trendy targets for people to bitch about. I have to disagree with that. Wire work in something like _Big Trouble in Little China_ works because we’re dealing w/ the supernatural & magical spells. But for regular humans it violates the principle that H.G. Wells talked about: If you see a pig flying over a hedge, that’s interesting. If all sorts of things are flying all over the place, then a pig flying over a hedge is boring. We’ve already suspended disbelief for the story, and even more so for the outrageous kung fu, and the wire work becomes just plain stupid. If you have a supernatural what’s-it, then it may be okay for the story. As practiced, it seems to be over used and boring. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2004, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-wired-fighting-scenes-in-martial-arts-ruined-the-entire-genre/233629/24 "2004-03-11T16:56:58Z")
I think audiences have gotten so used to wire stunts now, there’s an assumption that it is wire-work when, in fact, it may not be. I know watching _Men in Black_ I assumed [Keith Campbell’s](http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0132625/) up-the-wall backflip (He’s the first alien Edwards is chasing at the beginning of the movie) was a wire stunt. Nope, just timing and a very fit stuntman. DD ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2004, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-wired-fighting-scenes-in-martial-arts-ruined-the-entire-genre/233629/25 "2004-03-11T17:46:29Z")
I think the reason the outrageous wire stunts work in “Big Trouble in Little China” is that we have “normal guy” Jack Burton reacting to the outrageous stunts. The fight scenes in the Matrix were heightened because of the contrast between rule-bending matrix-reality and real-reality. ---
**Author:** ![GargoyleWB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gargoylewb/32/199_2.png) [@GargoyleWB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GargoyleWB)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2004, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-wired-fighting-scenes-in-martial-arts-ruined-the-entire-genre/233629/26 "2004-03-11T19:50:23Z")
My like (or dislike) of wire scenes is purely related to how they are portrayed in the plausibility of the movie’s universe. A fantasy, such as Crouching Tiger, the Matrix, or Superman, creates a universe that allows for the possibility of such suspension (pun!) of disbelief. Elsewhere, it is completely distracting and out of place. A perfect example is shown comparing Jet Li’s films. Tai Chi Master or Fong Sai Yuk are wire-fu perfection, enjoyable and wonderful within the fiction created. On the other hand, Romeo Must Die is horrible for setting up a gritty realistic normal world where our day-to-day physcis apply, and then ending the film with a massive CG & wire fight that sucks all enjoyment and immersion out of the viewer. Another example of poor wire use is with several recent Jackie Chan buddy cop movies. Here, the use of wire action in what should be a “realistic cop movie” universe doesn’t play well on the screen. In sill fantasies like Shanghai Noon though, it works enjoyably well. ---
**Author:** ![Carnac\_the\_Magnificent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Carnac\_the\_Magnificent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carnac_the_Magnificent)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2004, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-wired-fighting-scenes-in-martial-arts-ruined-the-entire-genre/233629/27 "2004-03-11T22:00:03Z")
[QUOTE=GargoyleWB] My like (or dislike) of wire scenes is purely related to how they are portrayed in the plausibility of the movie’s universe. A fantasy, such as Crouching Tiger, the Matrix, or Superman, creates a universe that allows for the possibility of such suspension (pun!) of disbelief. Elsewhere, it is completely distracting and out of place. [QUOTE] After reading your post and the posts of others (especially **Lemur 866** , I agree about the Matrix. For me, the wire stunts actually made the fantasy world work. But, damn, when I see the three scrawny chicks in Charlie’s Angels (esp. Drew) kicking butt and flying around like crazed tops, the whole wire effect just shuts down all the fun for me. ---
**Author:** ![Carnac\_the\_Magnificent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Carnac\_the\_Magnificent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carnac_the_Magnificent)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2004, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-wired-fighting-scenes-in-martial-arts-ruined-the-entire-genre/233629/28 "2004-03-11T22:02:11Z")
> [@Carnac the Magnificent!](#): > > > [@GargoyleWB](#): > > > > My like (or dislike) of wire scenes is purely related to how they are portrayed in the plausibility of the movie’s universe. A fantasy, such as Crouching Tiger, the Matrix, or Superman, creates a universe that allows for the possibility of such suspension (pun!) of disbelief. Elsewhere, it is completely distracting and out of place. > > After reading your post and the posts of others (especially **Lemur 866** ), I agree about the Matrix. For me, the wire stunts actually made the fantasy world work. > > But, damn, when I see the three scrawny chicks in Charlie’s Angels (esp. Drew) kicking butt and flying around like crazed tops, the whole wire effect just shuts down all the fun for me. Make that: two scrawny chicks and the plus-sized Drew. (I like Drew, especially her boobs, but lord…) ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2004, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-wired-fighting-scenes-in-martial-arts-ruined-the-entire-genre/233629/29 "2004-03-11T22:39:06Z")
> [@GargoyleWB](#): > > My like (or dislike) of wire scenes is purely related to how they are portrayed in the plausibility of the movie’s universe. Plausibility and execution are the keys, I think. Anything that takes us out of the movie is bad. Anything that works within the context of the movie is good. Period. I mean, neither Harrison Ford nor Keanu Reeves is a medical doctor. But we accept the former in _The Fugitive_ and roll our eyes at the latter in _Something’s Gotta Give._ In a weird sort of way, the same thing happens with wire-fu depending on where and how it’s used. ---
**Author:** ![Gadfly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/aeb1de/32.png) [@Gadfly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadfly)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2004, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-wired-fighting-scenes-in-martial-arts-ruined-the-entire-genre/233629/30 "2004-03-11T23:52:09Z")
> [@Carnac the Magnificent!](#): > > Make that: two scrawny chicks and the plus-sized Drew. (I like Drew, especially her boobs, but lord…) Plus-sized? What the hell? Drew, unlike a lot of actresses I name off the top of my head, is at a healthy weight. And she still looks gorgeous. ---
**Author:** ![Hodge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Hodge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hodge)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-wired-fighting-scenes-in-martial-arts-ruined-the-entire-genre/233629/31 "2004-03-12T00:28:00Z")
It’s obvious that the OP isn’t very familiar with the genre if he’s complaining about wire-work ruining the genre. Actually, wire-fu dates back to the 1960’s when the genre was first taking shape with the Shaw Brothers and King Hu. A major landmark was Hu’s _A Touch of Zen (1969)_ which contains some spectacular cinematic kung-fu, including a physics defying scene in a bamboo grove that directly influenced Ang Lee’s _CTHD_. It proved to be a huge influence on kung-fu movies and practially defined the Wu-Xia sub-genre. Bruce Lee’s gritty realism was actually an anomaly at the time of _Enter The Dragon’s_ release, although its huge success also proved to be a big influence on the genre, giving birth to the Sonny Chiba revenge flicks, among others. Yet, wire-work still wasn’t abandoned. A personal movie touchstone was 1978’s _Five Deadly Venoms_ which featured all manner of impossible stunts, running up walls, and a kick-ass fight on the ceiling. This was manna from heaven as far as a 10 year old kid was concerned and it proves to be one of those rare things that I loved as a kid and still do as an adult. Some other recommended wire flicks from the 80s and 90s would be _Heroic Trio_, _The Bride With White Hair_ and _A Chinese Ghost Story_. As others have said, the genre pendulum oscillates between realism and outright fantasy. It’s just that, along with almost everything else it latches onto, Hollywood is running wire-fu into the ground. However, the technique isn’t inherently flawed, especially when it’s executed with flair in a plausible context. Regardless of Hollywood’s crimes, wire-fu can’t “ruin an entire genre” afterall, to a large extent, it _ **is** _ the genre. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-wired-fighting-scenes-in-martial-arts-ruined-the-entire-genre/233629/32 "2004-03-12T00:43:52Z")
> [@Carnac the Magnificent!](#): > > Make that: two scrawny chicks and the plus-sized Drew. (I like Drew, especially her boobs, but lord…) She’s 5’4" and looks great in a bikini. If you think she’s 165 lb you better hope you never get a job trying to guess weights for a living. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Carnac\_the\_Magnificent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Carnac\_the\_Magnificent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carnac_the_Magnificent)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-wired-fighting-scenes-in-martial-arts-ruined-the-entire-genre/233629/33 "2004-03-12T04:01:26Z")
> [@Exapno Mapcase](#): > > She’s 5’4" and looks great in a bikini. If you think she’s 165 lb you better hope you never get a job trying to guess weights for a living. 🙂 Drew Barrymore thanks bra for weight-loss! An exaggeration! Of course, I’m sure you’re familiar with the industry buzz during the filming of Angels 2–back when Drew took close control of the editing process to make sure her cellulite was airbrushed out of every single frame. Speaking of bikini shots, you’re aware the pros use wide angle lens, clever lighting, and plenty of airbrushing, no? New York, Feb 15 (ANI): The “Charlie’s Angels” star Drew Barrymore has given the credit for her recent weight-loss to a sturdy bra. According to a report in rate the [music.com](http://music.com), the 28-year-old actress has shed 9.07 kgs since embarking on a daily running regime in the autumn last year. “It’s made my life so much better. I finally found a great jogging bra too. And that has a lot to do with it,” she said. Twice-married Barrymore also thinks diet change has helped her too. “I was a full vegetarian, living on carbs. Now I eat more protein”, the actress added. (ANI) ---
**Author:** ![pesch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pesch/32/4925_2.png) [@pesch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pesch)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-wired-fighting-scenes-in-martial-arts-ruined-the-entire-genre/233629/34 "2004-03-12T04:36:43Z")
**Hodge** , thanks for the quick history lesson on wire-work in movies. I had no, absolutely no, idea it went back that far. Your movie recommendations are down on my ‘must see eventually’ list (now at 209 movies and growing). ---
**Author:** ![Carnac\_the\_Magnificent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Carnac\_the\_Magnificent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carnac_the_Magnificent)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-wired-fighting-scenes-in-martial-arts-ruined-the-entire-genre/233629/35 "2004-03-12T05:05:49Z")
> [@Hodge](#): > > It’s obvious that the OP isn’t very familiar with the genre if he’s complaining about wire-work ruining the genre. Actually, wire-fu dates back to the 1960’s when the genre was first taking shape with the Shaw Brothers and King Hu. I humbly defer to your encyclopedic knowledge of all things wire-fu, grasshopper. 😉 Now, snatch the coin from my hand… A couple of questions: Why didn’t Bruce Lee’s films feature wire-fu? I don’t remember ever reading his opposition to it. Also: I can’t help but think that if “Enter the Dragon” hit the screens tomorrow, audiences wouldn’t be as awe-struck as they were in the early 1970s. I mean, how can Bruce Lee doing three quick roundhouse kicks to an opponent’s head compete with all the high-flying flamboyance one sees in your basic wire-fu flick? Even if you know the latter is special effects, doesn’t it nevertheless still artificially raise the bar beyond human capabilities, thus minimizing the feats of the purist? ---
**Author:** ![Carnac\_the\_Magnificent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Carnac\_the\_Magnificent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carnac_the_Magnificent)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-wired-fighting-scenes-in-martial-arts-ruined-the-entire-genre/233629/36 "2004-03-12T05:07:25Z")
> [@Carnac the Magnificent!](#): > > I humbly defer to your encyclopedic knowledge of all things wire-fu, grasshopper. 😉 Now, snatch the coin from my hand… er, pebble. Snatch the pebble. BTW, did David Carradine have any credible martial arts prowess? I remember watching an early Chuck Norris film back in the day and having to suffer the indignities of some goon behind me who insisted Carradine could have cleaned Norris’ clock. ---
**Author:** ![bookbuster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9bd4f/32.png) [@bookbuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bookbuster)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-wired-fighting-scenes-in-martial-arts-ruined-the-entire-genre/233629/37 "2004-03-12T06:59:37Z")
Has anyone seen [Jackie Chan: My Stunts](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0242546/)? (documentary) All others bow down. Bruce Lee, bow down. ---
**Author:** ![Silentgoldfish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@Silentgoldfish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silentgoldfish)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-wired-fighting-scenes-in-martial-arts-ruined-the-entire-genre/233629/38 "2004-03-12T07:14:07Z")
> [@Carnac the Magnificent!](#): > > I humbly defer to your encyclopedic knowledge of all things wire-fu, grasshopper. 😉 Now, snatch the coin from my hand… > > A couple of questions: Why didn’t Bruce Lee’s films feature wire-fu? I don’t remember ever reading his opposition to it. > > Also: I can’t help but think that if “Enter the Dragon” hit the screens tomorrow, audiences wouldn’t be as awe-struck as they were in the early 1970s. I mean, how can Bruce Lee doing three quick roundhouse kicks to an opponent’s head compete with all the high-flying flamboyance one sees in your basic wire-fu flick? Even if you know the latter is special effects, doesn’t it nevertheless still artificially raise the bar beyond human capabilities, thus minimizing the feats of the purist? No. I saw the people in CTHD run up a will, jump off and fly away. That took nothing away from how cool and graceful Jackie Chan looks when he runs up and over a wall unaided. ---
**Author:** ![Hodge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Hodge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hodge)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-wired-fighting-scenes-in-martial-arts-ruined-the-entire-genre/233629/39 "2004-03-12T12:27:44Z")
> [@Carnac the Magnificent!](#): > > Why didn’t Bruce Lee’s films feature wire-fu? I don’t remember ever reading his opposition to it. This is just speculation, but I think it’s a product of his dual upbringing in the US and Hong Kong and his starring in the Green Hornet TV series. He was probably much more in tune with what Western audiences of the time would be willing to accept than filmmakers based solely in Hong Kong. That, coupled with an independent streak that lead him to create two of his own martial arts disciplines, _Jun Fan_ and _Jeet Kun Do_ when he was dissatisfied with traditional teachings practially guaranteed that he wouldn’t put anything on-screen that wasn’t uniquely his own. > [@](#): > > Also: I can’t help but think that if “Enter the Dragon” hit the screens tomorrow, audiences wouldn’t be as awe-struck as they were in the early 1970s. I mean, how can Bruce Lee doing three quick roundhouse kicks to an opponent’s head compete with all the high-flying flamboyance one sees in your basic wire-fu flick? Even if you know the latter is special effects, doesn’t it nevertheless still artificially raise the bar beyond human capabilities, thus minimizing the feats of the purist? I agree that _Enter The Dragon_ wouldn’t have the same impact now as it did back then, but the same can be said of many important movies throughout history. _Citizen Kane’s_ visual and storytelling innovations have become so widely absorbed into the filmmaking vocabulary that many people viewing today have wondered what the big fuss is. _Star Wars_ unique blend of swashbuckling adventure and high tech special effects fueled the massive blockbluster mentality still so pervasive today that had it been released last year, it would probably be derided by many (witness the ho-hum reaction to the prequels). However, Idon’t think advances in special effects or technique in any way diminish the accomplishments of those with true ability. Given a choice between the increasingly tedious _Matrix_ movies and the fluid physical poetry of a Jackie Chan flick, I know what I’d choose in a heartbeat. It all comes down to a love of human movement and kinetic energy that is so evident in _Police Story_ or _Fist of Legend_ that is sadly missing in _The Matrix_ or _Charlie’s Angels_. ---
**Author:** ![Crowbar\_of\_Irony\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f08c70/32.png) [@Crowbar\_of\_Irony\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crowbar_of_Irony_3)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-wired-fighting-scenes-in-martial-arts-ruined-the-entire-genre/233629/40 "2004-03-12T17:52:47Z")
Wire-work was used for most Hong Kong-based martial art shows - be it TV or movie. When it was started, it was very, well, strange, but as time goes by, it improves. The thing is - does the script calls for fire-work? Most of the martial art movies were based on what we could called the _wuxia_ genre, where each combatant has more than ordinary skills. Soaring up into the air while peforming a spinning sword strike is not unheard off. Leaping over a high wall with one stride is a ‘low level’ skill which most combatant knows. It’s the nature of the story that needs wire work, before CG comes along. But Hollywood has the track record of over-using techniques, much like CG. So is Hollywood using Wire Work in a bad way? Yeah, I suppose so, but that’s my IMHO [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-wired-fighting-scenes-in-martial-arts-ruined-the-entire-genre/233629.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-wired-fighting-scenes-in-martial-arts-ruined-the-entire-genre/233629.md?page=3)