# Have you ever heard of these attraction/seduction programs? **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [February 8, 2020, 9:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-ever-heard-of-these-attraction-seduction-programs/847617 "2020-02-08T09:46:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2020, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-ever-heard-of-these-attraction-seduction-programs/847617/81 "2020-02-15T17:54:06Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Do you think there’s no sense in being friends with anybody at all, of any gender, if you don’t expect to have sex with them? No. > [@](#): > > If you do think there’s some sense in having friends one doesn’t have sex with, why do you want to allow this only with people of one’s own gender? I don’t. If I am looking for a romantic partner, and the other person is not, then our goals are incompatible and I would recommend that the person [list=A][li]Not listen to incels, who will tell you that you should become resentful.[/li][li]Not listen to PUAs when they tell you there is a magic set of phrases that will cause women to become your romantic partners[/li][li]Not listen to Nice Guys who hang around being friends and never get the relationship they want because they are settling[/li][li]Not listen to people who tell you that you shouldn’t try to have romantic relationships but seek friendship instead[/li][li]Do listen to PUAs when they say, “close the deal or move on”. Find out if the other person is at all interested. If they are, try and get them to start, or explore the possibility of, a romantic relationship. If they say No, move on to the next. If that offends the first person, too bad, but it’s none of your business - we aren’t dating.[/list][/li]Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![actualliberalnotoneofthose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e79b87/32.png) [@actualliberalnotoneofthose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/actualliberalnotoneofthose)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2020, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-ever-heard-of-these-attraction-seduction-programs/847617/82 "2020-02-16T00:35:58Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Stop looking for cheat codes. Relationships are not a video game. > > Both people in a relationship have their own agency. Stop asking _“How do I make women like me?”_ and ask yourself _“How do I turn myself into a person that women like?”_ So, I’m going to agree with this, as well as the next post that emphasized the part about "turning myself into a person _I_ like. I would also point out that there ARE PUA/“seduction coach” type people out now that really go this route rather than the old Mystery Method/The Game PUA stuff. There are a lot of good Youtube channels that focus on self-improvement with being more attractive as a by-product and focus on being a good, interesting person (rather than a needy, toxic “nice guy” for example) with things going, instead of some sort of shallow con-artist. Even a lot of the top seduction boot camp guys are now way more into the “build yourself into a high quality, genuine interesting person” rather than just how to approach and pickup using lines/schemes and mind games. I think some of the mind game stuff IS on point, because you have to keep in mind where most consumers of this material are coming from. It’s usually very desperate lonely guys who feel they have nothing to offer and tend to put themselves in situations where they turnoff potential friends and romantic partners with extreme neediness, people pleasing, etc. I’ve always been considered much more intelligent than average while also (slightly, I think) more physically attractive than average, and I never really developed a lot of social/dating skills. When I was 18-22 I really didn’t have to try, at least for getting into serious relationships that I was looking to get into (which in retrospect I regret). I wasn’t racking up any numbers, but I wasn’t one of those guys whining about not being able to get a GF. But that changed at some point, probably some combination of aging out of good looks (now I’m “nice for my age,” to quote a 20something acquaintance), being in a terribly unhealthy marriage, and being self-employed from a home office for over a decade. I’ve found myself pretty much edging into “Forever Alone” status, though I’m far from the “kissless, hugless virgin” territory. A lot of the dating guru stuff (not these seduction programs I see mentioned) has been helpful for me, as I’ve made a lot of improvements and I’m undeniably more generally attractive and socially adept than I’ve ever been. I’m still mostly alone but I have genuine friendships with women and women enjoy talking to me and being around me. I think I still come off as sort of goodlooking but asexual, though, because of whatever my “vibe” is. I think I lot of that is just sort of learning to crawl before walking and as I said I have zero social skills and I’m 40something trying to pick up basics like conversational things most people probably discover when they are teens. So, I find a lot of the PUA stuff to be terrible, but it can be helpful for certain people and aspects. ---
**Author:** ![Esprise\_Me](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprise_me/32/2947_2.png) [@Esprise\_Me](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprise_Me)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2020, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-ever-heard-of-these-attraction-seduction-programs/847617/83 "2020-02-16T04:57:20Z")
[quote=“Shodan, post:81, topic:847617”] [li]Do listen to PUAs when they say, “close the deal or move on”. Find out if the other person is at all interested. If they are, try and get them to start, or explore the possibility of, a romantic relationship. If they say No, move on to the next. If that offends the first person, too bad, but it’s none of your business - we aren’t dating.[/li][/QUOTE] I agree that if you aren’t interested in friendship, you shouldn’t force it or fake it. Even if you like the person for more than just their looks, it’s possible the sting of rejection could take the fun out of their companionship, and in that case it’s probably best not to torture yourself. Plus, if you hit on a woman you’re not already friends with and she turns you down with “let’s just be friends,” there’s a pretty good chance she’s just trying to spare your dignity and isn’t interested in friendship either. ---
**Author:** ![Mundane\_Super\_Hero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mundane_super_hero/32/6304_2.png) [@Mundane\_Super\_Hero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mundane_Super_Hero)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2020, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-ever-heard-of-these-attraction-seduction-programs/847617/84 "2020-02-16T12:12:36Z")
I’m sorry, but this thread is making me giggle. ( I’m so ashamed ) > [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > Women are not Pokemon. Also, they get Really Really Pissed if you start throwing little hollow plastic balls at them…! > [@susan](#): > > If I became aware that someone were trying this on me, my revenge would know no limits. Hollow Plastic Ball Fight…! ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2020, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-ever-heard-of-these-attraction-seduction-programs/847617/85 "2020-02-17T00:49:18Z")
> [@Mundane\_Super\_Hero](#): > > Hollow Plastic Ball Fight…! Big brass balls is more like it. ---
**Author:** ![Mundane\_Super\_Hero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mundane_super_hero/32/6304_2.png) [@Mundane\_Super\_Hero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mundane_Super_Hero)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2020, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-ever-heard-of-these-attraction-seduction-programs/847617/86 "2020-02-17T01:28:03Z")
> [@susan](#): > > Big brass balls is more like it. Someone has a version of Pokemon which is Much more expensive than mine. TL,DR - " Pika…? " ---
**Author:** ![sta3535](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/da6949/32.png) [@sta3535](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sta3535)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2020, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-ever-heard-of-these-attraction-seduction-programs/847617/87 "2020-02-18T21:05:26Z")
Furthermore, most girls would be turned off if a guy acted like Johnny Bravo. Have you ever met a guy who acted like him? ---
**Author:** ![Mundane\_Super\_Hero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mundane_super_hero/32/6304_2.png) [@Mundane\_Super\_Hero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mundane_Super_Hero)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2020, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-ever-heard-of-these-attraction-seduction-programs/847617/88 "2020-02-19T00:05:54Z")
> [@sta3535](#): > > Furthermore, most girls would be turned off if a guy acted like Johnny Bravo. > > Have you ever met a guy who acted like him? Just once, but he wasn’t elected then. ---
**Author:** ![sta3535](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/da6949/32.png) [@sta3535](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sta3535)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2020, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-ever-heard-of-these-attraction-seduction-programs/847617/89 "2020-02-20T18:43:11Z")
> [@Esprise\_Me](#): > > OP, I’m glad to hear you’re receptive to our concerns about these “systems.” If I recall correctly, you’ve written before about having trouble making friends and interacting with people. If you’re looking for some non-sexist guidance in that area, which will probably help you get dates as much as it helps you make friends, I’ve heard a lot of praise for the book _Conversationally Speaking_ by Alan Garner. I read a snippet and was impressed with how he broke down a particular conversational skill: listening and asking follow-up questions instead of moving on to the next question you rehearsed, and why that makes for a better conversation. It seemed like a really good analytical perspective on something that comes so naturally to many neurotypical folks that it’s hard to explain, but for which some folks really need an explanation and a step-by-step guide. I don’t mean to continue this thread, but I have an interesting theory of why some people might try out these E-Books: In today’s day and age, some people believe that the only way to become successful in the dating world is to gain an unfair, competitive edge when it comes to dating someone. In reality, they should focus more on themselves, but instead, they believe that the only way to attract someone is through tips and tricks. Furthermore, they often lose sight of what really matters in life: Being yourself, respecting others, and knowing what’s right from wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2020, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-ever-heard-of-these-attraction-seduction-programs/847617/90 "2020-02-20T20:20:52Z")
Getting laid also really matters. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Esprise\_Me](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprise_me/32/2947_2.png) [@Esprise\_Me](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprise_Me)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2020, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-ever-heard-of-these-attraction-seduction-programs/847617/91 "2020-02-23T21:59:50Z")
> [@sta3535](#): > > I don’t mean to continue this thread, but I have an interesting theory of why some people might try out these E-Books: > > In today’s day and age, some people believe that the only way to become successful in the dating world is to gain an unfair, competitive edge when it comes to dating someone. > > In reality, they should focus more on themselves, but instead, they believe that the only way to attract someone is through tips and tricks. > > Furthermore, they often lose sight of what really matters in life: Being yourself, respecting others, and knowing what’s right from wrong. That’s an interesting theory. As Shodan says, people want to get laid, and I know it’s frustrating not to be able to find someone and tempting to think there must be some secret trick to it. But there’s an inherent self-hatred in embracing a strategy of trying to trick people into sleeping with you. As much as we’re driven by sex, we also really need genuine emotional connections to other human beings. A romantic relationship in particular, while not necessarily essential for personal fulfillment, is a natural thing to want and cherish. I suspect that straight American men may be more in need of a romantic partner than women are, because women are socialized differently and thus are able to be more open and vulnerable with our friends. In any event, you’re definitely cheating yourself out of any hope of a meaningful connection if you’re busy pursuing sex dishonestly. ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2020, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-ever-heard-of-these-attraction-seduction-programs/847617/92 "2020-02-24T22:52:01Z")
I don’t know much about these things, apart from reading “The Game” many years ago. It seemed self-serving and painted some of these guys as insecure jerks. They would interest women by using contrived conversations and some shady psychology. Quality women don’t really want to be subtlety insulted. That said, most men are interested in meeting quality women. “Be yourself” is loaded advice. You can’t really be someone you are not. But you want to be your best self. And a facet of yourself that is appropriate. Yourself but a little cleaner, better dressed, more talkative, maybe more confident, a little fitter, a little wittier. You want to become the type of person someone you want would be attracted to. Leil Lowndes, an older woman, is a well known speaker on flirting techniques. Her stuff is likely better than the average player. She thinks a book by Louis and Copeland is the best one on the subject if you think you need advice. It contains some hard truths but no manipulative bullshit. The hard truth is you need to make some changes, which is tough. The good news is the changes are practical and doable, if difficult, but reflect a better attitude and healthier thought process. Ultimately, the men must pursue and the women always, always have the ultimate say in any significant decision. Self-respect is important and respecting others more so. ---
**Author:** ![sta3535](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/da6949/32.png) [@sta3535](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sta3535)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2025, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-ever-heard-of-these-attraction-seduction-programs/847617/93 "2025-07-11T05:19:58Z")
I recently found out that one of them created a 2nd edition of their original product: trying to make some more money in this day and age… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-ever-heard-of-these-attraction-seduction-programs/847617.md?page=4)