# Have you ever left your body? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 19, 2002, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-ever-left-your-body/114811 "2002-06-19T05:16:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![emolson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5fc32e/32.png) [@emolson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emolson)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2002, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-ever-left-your-body/114811/41 "2002-06-24T21:33:13Z")
OK for the slight hijack - the first nine responses were “nonresponsive”, and I just wanted to get back on track. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by glee \* > \*\* > > …I mean this nicely 🙂 but I don’t believe you. (I have spent a lot of time discussing dowsing with professional dowsers, who admit they have **never** succeeded in a scientific test.) > > However, as a true scientist, I am perfectly willing to be convinced by a demonstration.\*\* I have never done a “scientific” test, but I also once did a quick and sloppy demo for 10 or 12 engineering types (details available on request). Perhaps another could be arranged to be witnessed by an impartial Doper in the **central Illinois area** some time around the 4th of July. > [@](#): > > \*\* > … Are you going to submit to scientific testing? > Are you really a scientist, or do you believe anecdotes over evidence? > > … > > If you’ve left your body, and can do it again, please claim the $1,000,000 as above (you qualify). If you don’t claim, please explain why.\*\* I readily admit that it only happened once; therefore, there would be nothing to submit to testing. However, if I develop the ability to do so at will, I will be thinking of ways to spend my $1M… \*\* > [@](#): > > If you’ve left your body, and can’t do it again, please explain why you don’t think it was just a hallucination. \*\* (Aside from the fact that it seemed to me as real as any other waking sensation in my life…) How about Occam’s Razor? (a) While in a well-rested, drug- and stress-free state, I had a hallucination, and simultaneously another person, also apparently well-rested, drug- and stress-free, hallucinated that she perceived what I experienced in my hallucination. (b) Something happened which was perceived by two people. (b) seems more reasonable to me. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2002, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-ever-left-your-body/114811/42 "2002-06-25T07:52:29Z")
emolson - I shared my experiences, so I’ve answered the OP, but I also share some of the poster’s skepticism. How does Occam’s Razor fit with this? Your OP states that a fellow OBEr “saw you up there.” Umm…That hardly counts to me as a situation perceived by two people. What else would you expect a sympathetic OBErs response to be? Now, if you walked around the room in a certain sequence, and an independent party were to recount that sequence for you, that may be admissible. Or better yet, flash a sequence of numbers with your astral fingers. Say, 2-5-1-4-3. If said observer can replicate the numbers you’ve shown to him/her, then that may be valid as well. However, her saying “I saw you up there” hardly counts as anything. Heck, if you had a seance, I’m sure several people at the table would all claim to have seen a spirit behind or floating over the medium. This hardly makes seances real. As for dowsing, well, if you truly are a scientist, then you’d realize one trial does not constitute proof of anything. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2002, 10:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-ever-left-your-body/114811/43 "2002-06-25T10:26:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by emolson \* > I have never done a “scientific” test, but I also once did a quick and sloppy demo for 10 or 12 engineering types (details available on request). This seems to be the standard dowsing retreat, when challenged by a scientist. You originally stated (bolding mine): > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by emolson \* > Having said that, I come from farm folk. Some farms, ours included, have drainage tiles, which need maintenance on occasion. When they do, \*\*we dowse to locate them. \*\* > > You don’t have to believe me. I don’t believe it myself. **But I can do it. Come across the pond sometime and I’ll demonstrate.** Also, not wishing to be rude 😛 but I have no interest at all in a claim that a single ‘sloppy demo’ of an ability ‘proves’ that mankind has incredible powers that will revolutionise physics. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by emolson \* > Perhaps another (demo) could be arranged to be witnessed by an impartial Doper in the **central Illinois area** some time around the 4th of July. \*\*I offer you $1,000,000 and you respond by saying that you’d instead like to show your ability in front of one person, for free. \*\* 😕 P.S. The money is at: > **[Home](https://web.randi.org)** > > JREF > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by emolson \* > I readily admit that it only happened once; therefore, there would be nothing to submit to testing. However, if I develop the ability to do so at will, I will be thinking of ways to spend my $1M… What about your farm dowsing? Was that all a hallucination? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by emolson \* > How about Occam’s Razor? > > (a) While in a well-rested, drug- and stress-free state, I had a hallucination, and simultaneously another person, also apparently well-rested, drug- and stress-free, hallucinated that she perceived what I experienced in my hallucination. > > (b) Something happened which was perceived by two people. > > (b) seems more reasonable to me. Oh dear. First, how do we know you were well-rested, drug- and stress-free? How do we know your witness was? What were the parameters of the test? In particular why didn’t your witness cry out that she could see you at the time? It is well-established that saying to someone afterwards “You saw that, didn’t you?” quite often results in a false positive. As pulykamell rightly points out, you should have done something that involved transmitting information \*\* which could only be done by paranormal means.\*\* Instead (just like your dowsing) we have precisely one unscientific experience, which you cannot repeat. THIS IS NOT SCIENCE! You appeal to Occam. Tsk, tsk. The simple explanation is not that the laws of physics have suddenly changed. 1. No scientist has ever witnessed OBE or dowsing. 2. However, many claims have been made for both abilities, by people who continue to believe, even after they fail every test. So by far the most likely explanation is that you (romantically) want this to be true, and so ignore the obvious - that there is no evidence. I’m sorry if you feel offended in some way. But Randi has put up $1,000,000 to persuade psychics to prove their abilities. We’re still waiting for one to do so. ---
**Author:** ![emolson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5fc32e/32.png) [@emolson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emolson)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2002, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-ever-left-your-body/114811/44 "2002-06-25T14:56:14Z")
**glee:** One of us is confused. In my response to you I attempted to separate the OBE stuff from the dowsing stuff. Please reread it, and if it is not clear to you what goes with what, I’ll take another shot. In a nutshell: OBE: happened once, nothing to test. dowsing: do so often, willing to test. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2002, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-ever-left-your-body/114811/45 "2002-06-26T01:31:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by emolson \* > **glee:** > > One of us is confused. In my response to you I attempted to separate the OBE stuff from the dowsing stuff. Please reread it, and if it is not clear to you what goes with what, I’ll take another shot. > > In a nutshell: > > OBE: happened once, nothing to test. > > dowsing: do so often, willing to test. Sorry, your post was indeed clear. I read it too fast. :o But if you are willing to be tested as a dowser, why not pick up **one million dollars**? [Homer voice] mmmm, money! [/Homer voice] Randi generally arranges a preliminary trial, mainly so you can explain exactly what your powers are, and be satisfied with the arrangements. Then you do the agreed test knowing where everything is, so you are happy with the conditions. Then you do the actual test, and provided you succeed, you take home the money. It is at this stage that dowsers generally give me a reason why they won’t do it. These have included: - it would take too much time (apart from travel, the test usually takes only a few hours) - I can’t perform for money (strangely these particular people often offer a professional dowsing service 😕 ) - Dowsing is an art, not a science - I know I can do it, so why should I prove it - I don’t need the money - the Society of Dowsers I belong to says we mustn’t be tested (I wonder why :eek: ) So, will it be the money or an excuse?! ---
**Author:** ![emolson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5fc32e/32.png) [@emolson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emolson)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2002, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-ever-left-your-body/114811/46 "2002-06-26T05:42:51Z")
**Aw, crap! I worked up a long response last night, but the SDMB server apparently spit it out. Oh well…** > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by pulykamell \* > \*\*… > > How does Occam’s Razor fit with this?\*\* (As I understand it) when two explanations are offered, the simpler one is more probably true. In my example, something happening which was perceived by two people is simpler than two people experiencing simultaneous hallucinations with identical subject matter, and ought to be, per Occam’s Razor, more probable. > [@](#): > > **Your OP states that a fellow OBEr “saw you up there.” Umm…That hardly counts to me as a situation perceived by two people. What else would you expect a sympathetic OBErs response to be?** Why not? I experienced something = one perception. She experienced something = one perception. Two perceptions. I don’t get your objection. “[F]ellow OBEr”? “[S]ympathetic OBEr”? Where did you get this? I have no idea if she was sympathetic, skeptical or had never even considered this before, since **I had never met her before.** > [@](#): > > \*\*… As for dowsing, well, if you truly are a scientist, then you’d realize one trial does not constitute proof of anything. \*\* Of course I realize that, and I’m not really a scientist, since my background is in engineering. Regardless, I can’t “prove” about 90% of what I **use** every day in blissful ignorance. As for “one trial”, are you referring to the “quick and dirty demo” I talked about? I was discussing my past experiences with these guys and was challenged to do a demonstration. I did. Skeptics asked for demo; skeptics got demo. Their turf, their conditions. Was it a rigorous, double blind scientific test? No. So what? I wasn’t looking for a Nobel prize. ---
**Author:** ![emolson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5fc32e/32.png) [@emolson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emolson)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2002, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-ever-left-your-body/114811/47 "2002-06-26T06:38:03Z")
(I have read your more recent post, but thought I’d address a couple of things.) > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by glee \* > \*\* > … > > First, how do we know you were well-rested, drug- and stress-free?\*\* If you don’t want to take my word for it, I guess you never will. > [@](#): > > **How do we know your witness was?** My perceptions. See above. > [@](#): > > **What were the parameters of the test?** Easy. There were none. > [@](#): > > **In particular why didn’t your witness cry out that she could see you at the time?** Beats me. > [@](#): > > **It is well-established that saying to someone afterwards “You saw that, didn’t you?” quite often results in a false positive.** So what? I didn’t say that to her, or anything else like it. > [@](#): > > **As pulykamell rightly points out, you should have done something that involved transmitting information \*\* which could only be done by paranormal means.** \*\* Yeah, well, had I known it was going to happen, I would have invited Randi, Penn and Teller, and the Mormon Tabernacle Choir to share the moment. Plus Elle MacPherson. > [@](#): > > **Instead (just like your dowsing) we have precisely one unscientific experience, which you cannot repeat. > THIS IS NOT SCIENCE!** So what? I can’t prove that I have consciousness, but I believe that I do, and act accordingly, and the universe acts as if I do. > [@](#): > > **…So by far the most likely explanation is that you (romantically) want this to be true, and so ignore the obvious - that there is no evidence…** Honestly, I don’t **want** anything at all in connection with this. I might need evidence if I were trying to convince a peer review committee of something, but I’m not, and I certainly don’t need any evidence beyond my own experience to tell me what I experience. ---
**Author:** ![emolson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5fc32e/32.png) [@emolson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emolson)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2002, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-ever-left-your-body/114811/48 "2002-06-26T06:44:14Z")
(I have read your more recent post, but thought I’d address a couple of things.) > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by glee \* > \*\* > … > > First, how do we know you were well-rested, drug- and stress-free?\*\* If you don’t want to take my word for it, I guess you never will. > [@](#): > > **How do we know your witness was?** My perceptions. See above. > [@](#): > > **What were the parameters of the test?** Easy. There were none. > [@](#): > > **In particular why didn’t your witness cry out that she could see you at the time?** Beats me. > [@](#): > > **It is well-established that saying to someone afterwards “You saw that, didn’t you?” quite often results in a false positive.** So what? I didn’t say that to her, or anything else like it. > [@](#): > > **As pulykamell rightly points out, you should have done something that involved transmitting information \*\* which could only be done by paranormal means.** \*\* Yeah, well, had I known it was going to happen, I would have invited Randi, Penn and Teller, and the Mormon Tabernacle Choir to share the moment. Plus Elle MacPherson. > [@](#): > > **Instead (just like your dowsing) we have precisely one unscientific experience, which you cannot repeat. > THIS IS NOT SCIENCE!** So what? I can’t prove that I have consciousness, but I believe that I do, and act accordingly, and the universe acts as if I do. > [@](#): > > **…So by far the most likely explanation is that you (romantically) want this to be true, and so ignore the obvious - that there is no evidence…** Honestly, I don’t **want** anything at all in connection with this. I might need evidence if I were trying to convince a peer review committee of something, but I’m not, and I certainly don’t need any evidence beyond my own experience to tell me what I experience. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2002, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-ever-left-your-body/114811/49 "2002-06-26T07:48:09Z")
So wait, lemme get this straight, if I’m reading you correctly you are stating that “I saw you up there” really IS all the evidence you are going on to substantiate this experience? Well, for me that isn’t evidence. However, I am apparently misunderstanding something. What the hell is EST? If it’s something not at all connected with paranormal activity or doesn’t draw people that would be interested in such things, then your experience has slightly more validity. If it does, well, then there’s all the more reason to be skeptical. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2002, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-ever-left-your-body/114811/50 "2002-06-26T11:23:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by emolson \* > If you don’t want to take my word for it, I guess you never will. I don’t dispute that you believe it happened. People claim all sorts of things have happened to them. But scientists, and this board, require evidence, especially for claims which utterly change the way we understand the world. Do you believe that aliens have abducted people? Do you believe that people can teleport to other planets? These claimants also say you can rely on their word. I’m also not suggesting that either of you were stressed, or on drugs. But you claimed that neither of you were, and I wondered how you could be so certain. You rely on your perceptions, instead of measurements. This is fine for everyday life, but not acceptable for such serious claims as OBE. I asked about parameters. You replied there were none. Again, no problem if you want to say something routine, or give your opinion. But this is a major scientific advance! Same with the witness. She sees you projecting. Why on earth doesn’t she cry out, and let others witness this astonishing event? You say you didn’t ask her to confirm your experience. How did the subject come up then? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by emolson \* > So what? I can’t prove that I have consciousness, but I believe that I do, and act accordingly, and the universe acts as if I do. Well let’s test that in connection with your confidence in your dowsing ability. 1. Almost everyone likes to earn money honestly (and easily). 2. Dowsing (unlike consciousness) is easy to test for. So why won’t you go and claim the money from Randi? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by emolson \* > I might need evidence if I were trying to convince a peer review committee of something, but I’m not, and I certainly don’t need any evidence beyond my own experience to tell me what I experience. I think this attitude doesn’t fit on this message board. Our motto is trying to stamp out ignorance. We want evidence, especially for dramatic claims. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2002, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-ever-left-your-body/114811/51 "2002-06-26T11:35:52Z")
And here’s why I don’t believe your application of Occam’s Razor is correct in this case: > [@](#): > > Ock·ham’s razor also Oc·cam’s razor Pronunciation Key (kmz) > n. > A rule in science and philosophy stating that entities should not be multiplied needlessly. \*\* This rule is interpreted to mean that the simplest of two or more competing theories is preferable and that an explanation for unknown phenomena should first be attempted in terms of what is already known.\*\* Also called law of parsimony. Plus, when she said she saw you “up there,” is it clear she was referring to you up at the ceiling, not simply “up there” addressing the group? ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2002, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-ever-left-your-body/114811/52 "2002-06-26T11:37:33Z")
Sorry, last cite from [dictionary.com](http://dictionary.com) ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2002, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-ever-left-your-body/114811/53 "2002-06-28T22:43:32Z")
Emolson, are you going to pick up $1,000,000 for a morning’s work? If not, why not? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-ever-left-your-body/114811.md?page=2)