# Have you no sense of decency, Mr. Cheney? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 14, 2014, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-no-sense-of-decency-mr-cheney/707242 "2014-12-14T22:21:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-no-sense-of-decency-mr-cheney/707242/41 "2014-12-15T16:38:46Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > It would be one thing if Cheney presided over a program of torture that made every reasonable effort to only torture terrorists. That would be awful enough. But the program he presided over did not make such efforts. Years into the program, the CIA couldn’t even figure out why they were torturing some people. > > The fact that Dick Cheney has no shame over recklessly torturing innocent people tells you everything you need to know about the man. He is a sick, scared little weasel who deserves to be in prison. Instead, he gets prime interview slots on the Sunday Talk Shows. If he had a decent bone in his body he’d slink away into the shadows and STFU. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-no-sense-of-decency-mr-cheney/707242/42 "2014-12-15T16:46:58Z")
You know, I’m starting to think Dick Cheney’s kind of a jerk. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-no-sense-of-decency-mr-cheney/707242/43 "2014-12-15T16:49:23Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > So, instead of saying “torture” you say “affected?” > How is that job in the Ministry of Truth working out, John? It’s doubleplusgood, and thanks for asking! ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-no-sense-of-decency-mr-cheney/707242/44 "2014-12-15T17:14:33Z")
It has been obvious for well over a decade that Dick Cheney is not in the same universe as Decency. All we can hope for is to use him as he is. And I say we ask him to take Bobby Jindahl hunting. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-no-sense-of-decency-mr-cheney/707242/45 "2014-12-15T17:16:30Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > It has been obvious for well over a decade that Dick Cheney is not in the same universe as Decency. > > All we can hope for is to use him as he is. And I say we ask him to take Bobby Jindahl hunting. That just means we get Cheney back. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-no-sense-of-decency-mr-cheney/707242/46 "2014-12-15T18:28:42Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > VP Cheney, [on MTP today](http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/cheney-torture-report-innocent-detainee), when asked about the fact that some of those tortured were wrongly detained (and likely innocent of any wrongdoing): > > Tortured a few innocent people… no big deal, right? What an awful human being. Not only does Cheney think we should torture, he’s not that concerned that we tortured innocent people. I do’t think that’s what he was saying. He was saying that there’s a yin and a yang, and you can’t have it both ways. To the extent that you’re only willing to administer the program to people about whom you’re 100% sure, then you’re upping the number of guilty people that are going to be let out. So he’s saying that he’s more concerned about the possiblity of people like Al-Bahgdadi et al being let out, and thus needs to lower the threshold that he uses before applying the program. The same dynamic is true of any justice system and penal code. If you require absolute 100% confidence of guilt before sentencing anyone, then you will sentence no one. No system works on this principle. Note: this is not to endorse Cheney’s positions here (including but not limited to his statement that he’s fine with 25% innocents) but what he actually said is not what’s being depicted in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Donald\_Rump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@Donald\_Rump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donald_Rump)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-no-sense-of-decency-mr-cheney/707242/47 "2014-12-15T18:35:02Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I do’t think that’s what he was saying. > > He was saying that there’s a yin and a yang, and you can’t have it both ways. To the extent that you’re only willing to administer the program to people about whom you’re 100% sure, then you’re upping the number of guilty people that are going to be let out. So he’s saying that he’s more concerned about the possiblity of people like Al-Bahgdadi et al being let out, and thus needs to lower the threshold that he uses before applying the program. Actually, your characterization of what he said sounds exactly like “Tortured a few innocent people… no big deal.” At least, not a big enough deal to do away with the program, which is all that matters in this context. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-no-sense-of-decency-mr-cheney/707242/48 "2014-12-15T18:42:19Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I do’t think that’s what he was saying. > > He was saying that there’s a yin and a yang, and you can’t have it both ways. To the extent that you’re only willing to administer the program to people about whom you’re 100% sure, then you’re upping the number of guilty people that are going to be let out. So he’s saying that he’s more concerned about the possiblity of people like Al-Bahgdadi et al being let out, and thus needs to lower the threshold that he uses before applying the program. > > The same dynamic is true of any justice system and penal code. If you require absolute 100% confidence of guilt before sentencing anyone, then you will sentence no one. No system works on this principle. > > Note: this is not to endorse Cheney’s positions here (including but not limited to his statement that he’s fine with 25% innocents) but what he actually said is not what’s being depicted in this thread. In context, Cheney was responding specifically to the allegations that innocent people were tortured, and he was dismissive. Here is the [entire transcript](http://www.nbcnews.com/meet-the-press/meet-press-transcript-december-14-2014-n268181). Here is the relevant portion, snipped but unaltered: > [@](#): > > CHUCK TODD: > > Let me ask you, what do you say to Gul Rahman, what do you say to Sulaiman Abdula, what do you say to Khalid al-Masri? All three of these folks were detained, they had these interrogation techniques used on them. They eventually were found to be innocent. They were released, no apologies, nothing. What do we owe them? > > DICK CHENEY: > > Well– > > CHUCK TODD: > > I mean, let me go to Gul Rahman. He was chained to the wall of his cell, doused with water, froze to death in C.I.A. custody. And it turned out it was a case of mistaken identity. > > DICK CHENEY: > > –right. But the problem I had is with the folks that we did release that end up back on the battlefield. Of the 600 and some people who were released out of Guantanamo, 30% roughly ended up back on the battlefield. Today we’re very concerned about ISIS. Terrible new terrorist organization. > > It is headed by named Baghdadi. Baghdadi was in the custody of the U.S. military in Iraq in Camp Bucca. He was let go and now he’s out leading the terror attack against the United States. I’m more concerned with bad guys who got out and released than I am with a few that, in fact, were innocent. > > CHUCK TODD: > > 25% of the detainees though, 25% turned out to be innocent. They were released. > > DICK CHENEY: > > Where are you going to draw the line, Chuck? How are– > > CHUCK TODD: > > Well, I’m asking you. > > DICK CHENEY: > > –you going to know? > > (OVERTALK) > > CHUCK TODD: > > Is that too high? You’re okay with that margin for error? > > DICK CHENEY: > > I have no problem as long as we achieve our objective. And our objective is to get the guys who did 9/11 and it is to avoid another attack against the United States. I was prepared and we did. We got authorizing from the president and authorization from the Justice Department to go forward with the program. It worked. It worked now for 13 years. > > We’ve avoided another mass casualty attack against the United States. And we did capture Bin Laden. We did capture an awful lot of the senior guys at Al Qaeda who were responsible for that attack on 9/11. I’d do it again in a minute. So Cheney has no problem with torturing to death of the innocent Rahman, and no problem with a 25% error rate. Of course, he doesn’t think (or says he doesn’t think) that this is torture at all. So I don’t get how he’s talking about a “yin and yang”, or “you can’t have it both ways” – he’s saying, in context, he has no problem with such a large error rate as long as we achieve our objectives. So what’s wrong with my OP? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-no-sense-of-decency-mr-cheney/707242/49 "2014-12-15T18:48:08Z")
Right. He’s saying he has no problem setting the error rate as high as 25%, in order to forstall people like al-Baghdadi being let out. That’s not the same thing as saying he has no problem with having 25% of the people in the program being innocent in obsolute terms. It’s just that if you have a choice of 25% innocents and no al-baghdadi out loose or 1% innocents and yes al-Baghdadi, then he has no problem setting the 25% level as the correct level. Obviously if there was the option of having 0% innocent and also no guilty people being released he would go for that option. But that’s not an available option. If you look at what he said, in the part you quoted, he’s clearly discussing it in terms of the available options and weighing the lesser evil. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-no-sense-of-decency-mr-cheney/707242/50 "2014-12-15T18:51:57Z")
And you think we’re not getting that? You think this pit is claiming Cheney said something else? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-no-sense-of-decency-mr-cheney/707242/51 "2014-12-15T18:53:12Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Right. > > He’s saying he has no problem setting the error rate as high as 25%, in order to forstall people like al-Baghdadi being let out. > > That’s not the same thing as saying he has no problem with having 25% of the people in the program being innocent in obsolute terms. It’s just that if you have a choice of 25% innocents and no al-baghdadi out loose or 1% innocents and yes al-Baghdadi, then he has no problem setting the 25% level as the correct level. > > Obviously if there was the option of having 0% innocent and also no guilty people being released he would go for that option. But that’s not an available option. If you look at what he said, in the part you quoted, he’s clearly discussing it in terms of the available options and weighing the lesser evil. Who are you arguing with? None of this is contrary to my OP, or what I said anywhere. It’s still monstrous, indecent, etc. Though, nowhere does he express any concern whatsoever for any innocents caught up in the program, even if they end up dead. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-no-sense-of-decency-mr-cheney/707242/52 "2014-12-15T18:58:33Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Who are you arguing with? None of this is contrary to my OP, or what I said anywhere. It’s still monstrous, indecent, etc. Though, nowhere does he express any concern whatsoever for any innocents caught up in the program, even if they end up dead. I’m not sure I understand you. On the one hand you’re saying “_None of this is contrary to my OP, or what I said anywhere_”, which implies that you agree that Cheney only said he had “no problem” with the 25% as a matter of policy and not in absolute terms. Then your last sentence says “_nowhere does he express any concern whatsoever for any innocents caught up in the program, even if they end up dead_”, implying that you believe he has no concern about these tortured or dead innocents at all. The second implication is the one I’m disputing. The context of the 25% question was not whether 25% of people being innocent is an unfortunate tragedy, but whether it was an indication of the wrong approach being used and his response was directed at this. ---
**Author:** ![Donald\_Rump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@Donald\_Rump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donald_Rump)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-no-sense-of-decency-mr-cheney/707242/53 "2014-12-15T19:12:39Z")
**F-P** : The pitting IS that Dick Cheney is a man of such moral depravity that he thinks torturing a few innocent people is a price worth paying to get some bad guys to give up some information. You’re presenting the idea of a “tradeoff” as if it’s somehow a more charitable interpretation of what he said, when that’s _exactly what is depraved about it_. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-no-sense-of-decency-mr-cheney/707242/54 "2014-12-15T19:20:53Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I’m not sure I understand you. On the one hand you’re saying “_None of this is contrary to my OP, or what I said anywhere_”, which implies that you agree that Cheney only said he had “no problem” with the 25% as a matter of policy and not in absolute terms. I used the phrase “no big deal”, and said he’s “not that concerned”. In that interview, what he said is entirely consistent with that informal phrase and a sense that he has little concern for those innocents that were killed/subjected to the techniques. > [@](#): > > Then your last sentence says “_nowhere does he express any concern whatsoever for any innocents caught up in the program, even if they end up dead_”, implying that you believe he has no concern about these tortured or dead innocents at all. > > The second implication is the one I’m disputing. The context of the 25% question was not whether 25% of people being innocent is an unfortunate tragedy, but whether it was an indication of the wrong approach being used and his response was directed at this. Again, how is this contrary? Someone with a shred of decency (in my view), even if they thought the techniques are warranted and necessary, would have expressed concern or sadness that innocents were subjected or, especially, killed; further, they would have stated that the 25% is too high and should be lower. Cheney doesn’t. He expresses no concern, and has no problem with the 25%. > [@Donald\_Rump](#): > > **F-P** : The pitting IS that Dick Cheney is a man of such moral depravity that he thinks torturing a few innocent people is a price worth paying to get some bad guys to give up some information. You’re presenting the idea of a “tradeoff” as if it’s somehow a more charitable interpretation of what he said, when that’s _exactly what is depraved about it_. 😕 Yep. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-no-sense-of-decency-mr-cheney/707242/55 "2014-12-15T19:43:07Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > …you’re upping the number of guilty people that are going to be let out. So he’s saying that he’s more concerned about the possiblity of people like Al-Bahgdadi et al being let out, … Uh, “being let out”? Are we talking about releasing people from prisons, or torturing the ones who are there? Da fuq? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-no-sense-of-decency-mr-cheney/707242/56 "2014-12-15T20:14:52Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I’m not sure I understand you. This is not a surprise. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-no-sense-of-decency-mr-cheney/707242/57 "2014-12-15T22:25:06Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > He was saying that there’s a yin and a yang, and you can’t have it both ways. To the extent that you’re only willing to administer the program to people about whom you’re 100% sure, then you’re upping the number of guilty people that are going to be let out. So he’s saying that he’s more concerned about the possiblity of people like Al-Bahgdadi et al being let out, and thus needs to lower the threshold that he uses before applying the program. Cheney is saying that when it comes to torture, you have to take the good with the bad. This could be the most deserved pitting in the history of this board. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-no-sense-of-decency-mr-cheney/707242/58 "2014-12-15T23:55:54Z")
Of course, he doesn’t consider it torture. It’s an “enhanced interrogation technique”. I guess it depends on which end of it your on whether you also consider it “enhanced” or not. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2014, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-no-sense-of-decency-mr-cheney/707242/59 "2014-12-16T01:14:14Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > And furthermore, I will also say that later in that MTP episode, there was an enlightening (for me) discussion about Obama’s drone strategy. I am not giving the current administration a pass with respect to war crimes and lack of decency, either. Well, at least the present Admin does have a better record in that area, in the sense that the clap is preferable to AIDS. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2014, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-no-sense-of-decency-mr-cheney/707242/60 "2014-12-16T01:15:16Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Of course, he doesn’t consider it torture. It’s an “enhanced interrogation technique”. In the sense that a neutron bomb emits “enhanced radiation.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-no-sense-of-decency-mr-cheney/707242.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-no-sense-of-decency-mr-cheney/707242.md?page=4)