# Have you used niggardly in conversation? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 11, 2010, 9:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-used-niggardly-in-conversation/560291 "2010-11-11T09:25:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-used-niggardly-in-conversation/560291/201 "2010-11-15T18:51:55Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > I’m not vehemently arguing anything. It just strikes me as recreational outrage at this point. It’s akin to still being passionate over the “freedom fries” controversy and the indignities of being socially pressured to say “happy holidays” rather than “merry Christmas”. Actually, it strikes me that being unhappy with the use of a word when you _know_ it isn’t related to an ethnic slur is more akin to “recreational outrage”. Obviously, the issue is still alive, because it is still being discussed here - because people are still asserting, all evidence to the contrary, that the use of the word is intentional race-bating. That’s what inspired this thread. Should that 'tude cease, then the “controversy” will indeed be moot. > [@](#): > > As an aside (because it doesn’t change my larger point), if you are claiming something as recent as 2009 has happened, could you describe what it was? Because I glanced through your link and saw nothing about it. The heading “Mendocino County, CA incident”. The date is given in a footnote article link. > [@](#): > > I’m annoyed whenever I see a dead horse being beaten. The “niggardly” juice is just not worth the squeeze that is routinely applied in defending its use. The word isn’t. Preventing outrage (particularly _ignorant_ outrage) from being entrenched as censorship is. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-used-niggardly-in-conversation/560291/202 "2010-11-15T18:58:03Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > I think it’s proof of my point, which is that this word was deliberately chosen by an asshole to be an asshole and to make the audience hear another word. Which is exactly what I have been saying. A good chunk of your audience is going to hear “nigger” if you say “niggard” or “niggardly.” It’s so obvious even a complete imbecile making signs gets it and knows what his audience will hear. However, the same imbecile is using “buck” for the exact same purpose. Are we then to avoid any use of that word - because some imbicile may use it to make a racially-charged point? Context is king. The use of “niggardly” on a racist asshole’s sign gives you a hint that a slur is intended; the use of the same word by a bureaucrat droning on about budget cuts - not so much. Just as the use of “buck” in the same asshole’s sign is an intentional slur, whereas if I say I need “a couple of bucks for the subway” few people would assume I needed a couple of Black fellows to escort me. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-used-niggardly-in-conversation/560291/203 "2010-11-15T19:31:02Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > However, the same imbecile is using “buck” for the exact same purpose. Yes. He’s using a known slur against black men and a sound-alike slur against black men. This demonstrates that “niggardly” sounds like a slur. That’s all I’m interested in demonstrating, that at least some people hear “nigger” when you say “niggard” or “niggardly.” What you do with that information is up to you. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-used-niggardly-in-conversation/560291/204 "2010-11-15T19:41:57Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Yes. He’s using a known slur against black men and a sound-alike slur against black men. This demonstrates that “niggardly” sounds like a slur. That’s all I’m interested in demonstrating, that at least some people hear “nigger” when you say “niggard” or “niggardly.” What you do with that information is up to you. The problem here is that no-one could reasonably argue that _any_ word an imbecile could use as a slur ought to go un-used by polite folks, for its non-racially-charged meaning. Note that “buck” is commonly used by ordinary people without anyone thinking twice about it as a synonym for “dollar”, even though in certain contexts it’s a known racial slur - as your pic demonstrates. How much more true, when the word _isn’t_ actually a known racial slur - but only sorta sounds like one? ---
**Author:** ![Gestalt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/90ced4/32.png) [@Gestalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gestalt)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-used-niggardly-in-conversation/560291/205 "2010-11-15T19:55:59Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > People thought that the Sun went around the Earth for thousands of years. Oddly, it doesn’t. OMG, seriously?? I very much made it a point to explain that there are OBJECTIVE FACTS that exist regarding science, which are not true regarding language. Where is the objective bastion where one can find the absolute meaning of words? The OED? Do you not see the difference between the objectivity of scientific facts and the subjectivity of language? ---
**Author:** ![Gestalt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/90ced4/32.png) [@Gestalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gestalt)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-used-niggardly-in-conversation/560291/206 "2010-11-15T19:58:16Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > And if people think “marriage” refers only to the union between a man and a woman, then it does. Period. > > Or maybe some other punctuation is called for on that one, eh? Yes, to them it does. How can I argue what a word does or doesn’t mean to people? “Niggardly” is race baiting to some people, period. Those people are not “wrong” for feeling that way. If you want to communicate with them and don’t want to sound like you’re racist or insensitive, don’t use the word niggardly. Or would you insist that the people who know what niggardly means according to the dictionary and still think it’s a poor choice of words and potentially racist are wrong and stupid? Because that is really the only other option. Either they’re right or they’re wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Gestalt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/90ced4/32.png) [@Gestalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gestalt)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-used-niggardly-in-conversation/560291/207 "2010-11-15T20:00:25Z")
I have never understood where prescriptivists come off demanding that a word has a specific meaning. It’s like demanding that there is an objective ranking in the tastiness of various foods. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-used-niggardly-in-conversation/560291/208 "2010-11-15T20:09:40Z")
> [@Gestalt](#): > > I have never understood where prescriptivists come off demanding that a word has a specific meaning. It’s like demanding that there is an objective ranking in the tastiness of various foods. Yeah! Gel armoire hypotenuse, uncivil fin klaxon. ---
**Author:** ![Gestalt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/90ced4/32.png) [@Gestalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gestalt)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-used-niggardly-in-conversation/560291/209 "2010-11-15T20:20:25Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > Yeah! Gel armoire hypotenuse, uncivil fin klaxon. Again, my standard has always been that you get your point across to your audience, for whether or not a word is being used “properly.” I mean, toddlers frequently communicate with their parents in words that many of us wouldn’t recognize. What are they communicating with, if not words? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-used-niggardly-in-conversation/560291/210 "2010-11-15T23:09:57Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Actually, it strikes me that being unhappy with the use of a word when you _know_ it isn’t related to an ethnic slur is more akin to “recreational outrage”. Forming a judgement about someone’s possible intent is not outrage, let alone recreational. Just in case you’re alluding to anything I or anyone else in this thread has tried to explain to you. > [@](#): > > Obviously, the issue is still alive, because it is still being discussed here - because people are still asserting, all evidence to the contrary, that the use of the word is intentional race-bating. And in this very thread, **jsgoddess** provided clear proof that some people do use “niggardly” to race-bait. Here’s more proof that people use the word in disingenuous ways: In this [thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=133943&page=4&highlight=niggardly), multiple posters said they would go out of their way to use “niggardly” just to piss people off or make some kind of statement above and beyond straightforward communication. Several in that group even went on record saying they had never used the word before, but were now going to find a reason to use it. Can you not see how this is obnoxious and provocative behavior that could make someone reasonably question whether someone casually using “niggardly” is doing so with a pure heart? If you still can not get this, I think it’s only because you don’t want to. As I keep pointing out, there’s nothing special about “niggardly” with regard to this. “Bitch” and “faggot” are examples of the same thing–words and usages falling out of popular favor due to how loaded they’ve become in the social sphere. While it’s stupid to automatically be offended when you see or hear the word regardless of context or the author’s expressed intent, it’s also stupid to use the word and expect to be immune from judgement simply on the grounds that the word is in the dictionary. That’s all the people who are arguing against you are trying to get across. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-used-niggardly-in-conversation/560291/211 "2010-11-15T23:37:50Z")
What’s hilarious is that the SDMB thread I just linked was started in 2002, but you wouldn’t know it just looking at it. The same arguments hashed in that thread are almost identical to the ones re-hashed in this one. It truly is a dead horse at this point and I admit I’ve done my fair of beating it, as much as beating dead horses annoys me. ---
**Author:** ![Interconnected\_Series\_of\_Tubes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/13edae/32.png) [@Interconnected\_Series\_of\_Tubes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Interconnected_Series_of_Tubes)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2010, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-used-niggardly-in-conversation/560291/212 "2010-11-16T00:20:44Z")
Threads like this, full of internet social vigilantism and absolutist, literalist principled chest-thumping, make me rofl in my waffle. According to this slice of the interwebs, over ~65% of you use a word with proven and deep-seeded associations to perhaps the single most inflammatory word in the English repertoire. Furthermore this presumably means that you all “use it” as a standard part of your vocabulary rather than a giggled one-off you snickered once, nine years ago, in a restaurant booth with your closest internet superhero friends. Correct me if I’m wrong. I’ll add my tally to knowing the definition, but avoiding use, of the word. And I’d submit that a vast number of you 65% are in fact 100% full of crap. I’ll bet the real-world use of the word would plummet far under 10% if we put a black person in the same room within earshot. To deny the very real inflammatory effect of the word is willfully ignorant, whether or not you think it “should” be allowed; it isnt, sorry. Not as far as the general population goes. You’ll just have to get over this one, and outside private conversations with your fellow English majors it’s probably a bad idea to attempt its use in public. You can be completely and totally right, and stand on principle, and still get your ass kicked or your reputation ruined. I think you’re just going to have to let this one go, vocabulary warriors. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2010, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-used-niggardly-in-conversation/560291/213 "2010-11-16T00:23:26Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Forming a judgement about someone’s possible intent is not outrage, let alone recreational. Just in case you’re alluding to anything I or anyone else in this thread has tried to explain to you. Heh, ‘I’m not outraged, I’m just judging you based on your word choice’. > [@](#): > > And in this very thread, **jsgoddess** provided clear proof that some people do use “niggardly” to race-bait. And as I pointed out, the very same person used the word “buck” to race-bait. Yet, so far no-one is objecting to the use of that term in its context of meaning a “dollar”. > [@](#): > > Here’s more proof that people use the word in disingenuous ways: In this [thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=133943&page=4&highlight=niggardly), multiple posters said they would go out of their way to use “niggardly” just to piss people off or make some kind of statement above and beyond straightforward communication. Several in that group even went on record saying they had never used the word before, but were now going to find a reason to use it. > > Can you not see how this is obnoxious and provocative behavior that could make someone reasonably question whether someone casually using “niggardly” is doing so with a pure heart? If you still can not get this, I think it’s only because you don’t want to. As I keep pointing out, there’s nothing special about “niggardly” with regard to this. “Bitch” and “faggot” are examples of the same thing–words and usages falling out of popular favor due to how loaded they’ve become in the social sphere. However, the word, while slightly archaic, hasn’t fallen out of the public sphere. Look at the evidence in this very thread - among those polled here on the SDMB, a substantial majority claim they use the word - and the SDMB is more “progressive” than most. > [@](#): > > While it’s stupid to automatically be offended when you see or hear the word regardless of context or the author’s expressed intent, it’s also stupid to use the word and expect to be immune from judgement simply on the grounds that the word is in the dictionary. That’s all the people who are arguing against you are trying to get across. I agree with the first point and disagree with the second. The word isn’t nearly as obscure as you believe, people IRL actually use it for its intended meaning. Those making the judgment are simply incorrect, assuming that the context doesn’t demonstrate an actual intent to offend, and make themselves look foolish in doing so. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2010, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-used-niggardly-in-conversation/560291/214 "2010-11-16T00:27:20Z")
> [@Gestalt](#): > > Yes, to them it does. How can I argue what a word does or doesn’t mean to people? > > “Niggardly” is race baiting to some people, period. Those people are not “wrong” for feeling that way. If you want to communicate with them and don’t want to sound like you’re racist or insensitive, don’t use the word niggardly. > > Or would you insist that the people who know what niggardly means according to the dictionary and still think it’s a poor choice of words and potentially racist are wrong and stupid? Because that is really the only other option. Either they’re right or they’re wrong. Why is that the only other choice? It’s clear to me they’re wrong, but by virtue of being mistaken, not stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2010, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-used-niggardly-in-conversation/560291/215 "2010-11-16T00:29:43Z")
> [@Interconnected\_Series\_of\_Tubes](#): > > Threads like this, full of internet social vigilantism and absolutist, literalist principled chest-thumping, make me rofl in my waffle. > > According to this slice of the interwebs, over ~65% of you use a word with proven and deep-seeded associations to perhaps the single most inflammatory word in the English repertoire. Furthermore this presumably means that you all “use it” as a standard part of your vocabulary rather than a giggled one-off you snickered once, nine years ago, in a restaurant booth with your closest internet superhero friends. Correct me if I’m wrong. > > I’ll add my tally to knowing the definition, but avoiding use, of the word. And I’d submit that a vast number of you 65% are in fact 100% full of crap. I’ll bet the real-world use of the word would plummet far under 10% if we put a black person in the same room within earshot. > > To deny the very real inflammatory effect of the word is willfully ignorant, whether or not you think it “should” be allowed; it isnt, sorry. Not as far as the general population goes. You’ll just have to get over this one, and outside private conversations with your fellow English majors it’s probably a bad idea to attempt its use in public. > > You can be completely and totally right, and stand on principle, and still get your ass kicked or your reputation ruined. I think you’re just going to have to let this one go, vocabulary warriors. Yeah, what do we need polls, evidence and argument for, if we can just make stuff up, call people liars, and threaten them with an internet ass-kicking? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Interconnected\_Series\_of\_Tubes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/13edae/32.png) [@Interconnected\_Series\_of\_Tubes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Interconnected_Series_of_Tubes)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2010, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-used-niggardly-in-conversation/560291/216 "2010-11-16T00:35:15Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Yeah, what do we need polls, evidence and argument for, if we can just make stuff up, call people liars, and threaten them with an internet ass-kicking? :rolleyes: The point is that I’m extremely dubious of the constant and, frankly, elitist claims that are frequently touted here. Basically, I bet not a single one of you would use ‘niggardly’ in a crowded bar amongst a group of, say, new co-workers that included a black person. What you’re all claiming simply contradicts reality. That’s all - no ass-kickings necessary. ETA: But you’ll just probably call me a troll again - sorry to derail the thread. Go back to your spectacularly original and unique arguments that we’ve never read before. If you use niggardly and don’t expect people to get pissed off, you’re an idiot (as has been mentioned.) ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2010, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-used-niggardly-in-conversation/560291/217 "2010-11-16T00:52:55Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > And as I pointed out, the very same person used the word “buck” to race-bait. Yet, so far no-one is objecting to the use of that term in its context of meaning a “dollar”. You guys are serious? I think they used ‘buck’ because it rhymes with ‘fuck’ and starts with a ‘b’ so it works perfectly for the ‘fuck obama’ thing. Right? Damn, I never would have thought they were trying to use ‘buck’ as a racial slur in a million years. Niggardly was definitely being used as a slur there, though. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2010, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-used-niggardly-in-conversation/560291/218 "2010-11-16T00:55:14Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Those making the judgment are simply incorrect, assuming that the context doesn’t demonstrate an actual intent to offend, and make themselves look foolish in doing so. There’s no rational reason for you to be so sure that people who make this judgement are always or even usually wrong. The thread I linked to unambiguously shows that people–some of the same progressive Dopers that you referenced earlier–will gleefully use the word just to provoke. But go on and pretend that the evidence hasn’t been presented to you or act like none of it matters. People who use “niggardly” are pure as the driven snow! Anyone who thinks otherwise is bad and stupid! Yay! ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2010, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-used-niggardly-in-conversation/560291/219 "2010-11-16T01:08:43Z")
> [@Nzinga\_Seated](#): > > You guys are serious? I think they used ‘buck’ because it rhymes with ‘fuck’ and starts with a ‘b’ so it works perfectly for the ‘fuck obama’ thing. Right? Damn, I never would have thought they were trying to use ‘buck’ as a racial slur in a million years. Niggardly was definitely being used as a slur there, though. I think the “buck” thing is a happy accident for the sign maker, though it wouldn’t shock me if he had done it deliberately. Just as I think it was awfully coincidental that a black friend of mine, watching his white SO get hit on by a white guy, got to hear “niggardly” a couple of times in the conversation with, I believe, accompanying glances to see if the barbs were going home. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2010, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-used-niggardly-in-conversation/560291/220 "2010-11-16T01:14:25Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > And as I pointed out, the very same person used the word “buck” to race-bait. Yet, so far no-one is objecting to the use of that term in its context of meaning a “dollar”. So your argument is that because no one (that you are aware of) is objecting to “buck” it’s groundless for anyone to object to “niggardly”? Let’s say people _did_ object to “buck”. Let’s say they objected to “niggling” too. Complaints about these words would not suddenly make you more open to complaints about “niggardly”, so why act as though this lack of consistency (in your mind) is one reason why you side with the pro-niggardly side? “Buck” in some contexts do rub people the wrong way, by the way. But the word is less jarring than “niggardly” because “buck” as shorthand for strong black male field slave is less common than it’s other meanings (dollar bills, a jerking motion, a male goat, etc.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-used-niggardly-in-conversation/560291.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-used-niggardly-in-conversation/560291.md?page=12)