# Have you used niggardly in conversation? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 11, 2010, 9:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-used-niggardly-in-conversation/560291 "2010-11-11T09:25:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Ura-Maru](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/51bf81/32.png) [@Ura-Maru](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ura-Maru)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2010, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-used-niggardly-in-conversation/560291/141 "2010-11-12T03:50:49Z")
Nah. I know what it means, and would not assume racism if someone else did. But unless it was by an elderly person, an English teacher, a British nobleman, or a character in a fantasy novel, I would assume the person using it was doing so in a calculated attempt to be provocative. I wouldn’t refer to a bundle of sticks as a faggot, either, in the unlikely event I was ever in a conversational situation where I would need to refer to a bundle of sticks. To be fair, I would use the word ‘dike,’ possibly because that might actually come up in normal conversation. – That’s not going to cost me my ‘d-word’ privileges, is it? ---
**Author:** ![Ura-Maru](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/51bf81/32.png) [@Ura-Maru](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ura-Maru)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2010, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-used-niggardly-in-conversation/560291/142 "2010-11-12T03:57:58Z")
To clarify: provocative as in PC-baiting, not race-baiting. ## Missed the edit window. I am a recognized master of –baiting. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2010, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-used-niggardly-in-conversation/560291/143 "2010-11-12T04:07:31Z")
I would like to add a few things: 1. Shakespeare did not live during the era when people spoke “Middle English.” Middle English was roughly from the mid-1100s to the mid-1400s. After that, people spoke Modern English. That’s why you can actually read all of Shakespeare in its original form and understand what it means. Obviously it’s widely different from how anyone would write plays today, but it’s still considered Modern English (Early Modern English, specifically.) If you ever read the Canterbury Tales, something truly written in Middle English, you will see how different it is. They are much, much harder to understand in their original form than is Shakespeare. 1. Niggardly, from what I can tell, was widely used in the Victorian Age, aka as recently as 19th century literature. This was almost 300 years after Shakespeare, and it wasn’t a word that would be out of place in a work of Dickens or other writers of that era. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2010, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-used-niggardly-in-conversation/560291/144 "2010-11-12T04:14:43Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > In another thread it was alleged that the word “niggardly” is too closely related to nigger to ever be used in polite conversation anymore. I don’t wanna go beyond the bounds of this (or that) forum, but you may wanna look at who that was alleged by . . . ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2010, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-used-niggardly-in-conversation/560291/145 "2010-11-12T04:18:33Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Right, **LHoD**. I’m a veterinarian and am well-versed with “bitch=female dog” but would never causually refer to a client’s dog in that manner just because the word fits. It’s jarring and liable to cause a bad impression. So I’m going to modify my language accordingly. Not a hardship at all for me because “bitch” ain’t on the forefront of my mind anyway. Just like “niggardly” isn’t. > > Why doesn’t this kind of self-censorship seem to bother the lexiphiles like self-censoring “niggardly” does? This is where I get lost. I’m not a veterinarian but I know a lot of people that breed show dogs, in that microcosm the use of the word “bitch” in its classic since is almost universal. At least in the few families I’m ware of that are heavily into that world. It can be a little interesting to be around several of them at once because when they start talking about their animals they do drop the word very often and it is so obviously just “how they speak about the dog in question” that you don’t really get any impression at all that it is out of place. In any other context I always think it’s strange if someone uses the traditional term of “bitch” for a female dog. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2010, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-used-niggardly-in-conversation/560291/146 "2010-11-12T10:56:07Z")
I was originally not going to vote, since I know about the word but don’t use it. But this thread has convinced me otherwise. The meaning of “word that sounds like nigger” has eclipsed the legitimate meaning. IN other words, like it or not, certain buttholes have used it enough to make it offensive. The same thing has happened with masticated and matriculated–the difference is that masturbating is only a taboo word (if that) and not an offensive one. But if you used it around some little old ladies, full well knowing they’d find the original word offensive, I would still consider you a jerk. As for using it for vocabulary’s sake: I just stick with my maxim that the smartest people are not the ones that use the big words, but the ones that can explain even the most complex concepts with simple words. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2010, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-used-niggardly-in-conversation/560291/147 "2010-11-12T12:49:21Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I’m not a veterinarian but I know a lot of people that breed show dogs, in that microcosm the use of the word “bitch” in its classic since is almost universal. At least in the few families I’m ware of that are heavily into that world. Yeah I’m familiar with that culture too. In those circles, in that context, where everyone is on the same page and “bitch” is so embedded in the parlance that it’s actually harder to not use it than use it, I’d probably use “bitch” without giving it a second thought. Just when I’m entering interacting with horse people, I’m going to refer to a foal’s mother as its “dam” (which is another word that could strike the novice the wrong way, hehe). Not the “mommy horse”. But if I’m counseling Mrs. Church Lady about spaying her “bitch” poodle, she’s not an idiot for being bothered by my usage. _I’m_ an idiot saying something that can be easily misunderstood or regarded with suspicion. And if I blurt out “Where’s the dam horse?” when doing a house call for a horse owner, I’d be surprised if they didn’t look for a smirk on my face even if they knew what I meant. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2010, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-used-niggardly-in-conversation/560291/148 "2010-11-12T14:22:32Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > 1. Niggardly, from what I can tell, was widely used in the Victorian Age, aka as recently as 19th century literature. This was almost 300 years after Shakespeare, and it wasn’t a word that would be out of place in a work of Dickens or other writers of that era. Heck, even Tolkein used it, though his usage turned out to be sexist instead of racist. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2010, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-used-niggardly-in-conversation/560291/149 "2010-11-12T14:33:28Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > But who here has actually been told they have to censor themselves wrt to “niggardly”? It’s not as though there are PSAs put out about the evils of “niggardly”. It’s not as though anyone except message board geeks even really care about it. It’s not a hot topic; there are no media campaigns about it. Who in the world is using it _that_ frequently under natural circumstances that they would even encounter someone who would chatise them about it? I bet not one person who has used the word in a normal conversation has taken flak for it. In the thread that **Hari Seldom** posted to, did he get pitted for his use of “niggardly”? Did anyone even see fit to comment about it? > > Frankly, what we are _really_ talking about are some people choosing to self-censor (or maybe not even self-censor…they just find no use for it) for whatever reason they have, and other people getting bent out of shape by the idea that they can be judged by their word choice, no matter how arcane it is. And what I’m saying is word choice is no holy grail. Your speech can be judged by any number of things, and that’s completely normal. Forgive me if I’m wrong, but what started off this “hoopla” in the first place was a media story some years ago about a political aide being _fired_ for using the word. Sure, you can privately consider (against all evidence) that someone using “niggardly” is really a racist, if you want; that’s your prerogative. I think it is foolish, but there is nothing fundamentally wrong with being foolishly over-sensitive. > [@](#): > > Expansive for the sake of expansiveness only has value to the person who prides themselves on remembering a bunch of exotic and not-so-exotic words. But if no one understands you the way you _want_ to be understood when you employ this expansive vocabulary, it’s just wasted noise. > > I know this is hard for a lot of people to grasp (and I’m not saying this condescendingly). I too pride myself on having a generous vocabulary too. But I try never to forget what speech is really about. It’s function is to convey information. Artistic flourishes are nice, but itheir value are highly subject to the law of diminishing returns when it comes to straightforward communication. As I’ve said before - I myself don’t use the word, for more or less this exact reason: I think it is destractingly archaic. But others do in fact use it. I’ve heard it used, several times and unlinked to this controversy - remember, i come from a different country from you. > [@](#): > > Its all about perception. You’re essentially asking me to explain why “niggling” isn’t controversial. I don’t know. Why isn’t “kited”? Why isn’t “country”? > > But if you don’t think “niggardly” is loaded, in spite of the fact that there have endless discussions about it in addition to overhyped media circuses, then I’m really not going to expend the energy in explaining it to you. This is circular reasoning, and gets back to mt point about allowing the ignorant to effectively censor the language, based purely on a self-generated sense of outrage. If one cannot explain why one word _which has just as much lingusitic similarity to the offensive word as another_ is not offensive such as “niggling”, the explaination is probably that the “media circuses” you mention have in effect created the outrage. The POV appears to be that outrage, once created, must be catered too, even if it has no logical basis? ---
**Author:** ![shiftless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9c0ed/32.png) [@shiftless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shiftless)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2010, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-used-niggardly-in-conversation/560291/150 "2010-11-12T14:43:21Z")
I used to use the word, now I don’t unless I really need to make such a fine distinction that no other word would do. That is very rare. It is too bad in a way, there are tons of good words (many listed in this thread) that have taken on unpleasant baggage over the years. But, having a good vocabulary isn’t just about knowing lots of big words or even their first dictionary meanings - it’s about understanding the nuances of the words. I am kind of surprised to hear dopers asking why someone would use a big or obscure word when a small, common one would do almost as well. Should we all talk slower too? This is still the same SMDB where a person can be legally hanged (or at least pitted) for a misused word, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2010, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-used-niggardly-in-conversation/560291/151 "2010-11-12T14:43:27Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > If one cannot explain why one word _which has just as much lingusitic similarity to the offensive word as another_ is not offensive such as “niggling” Niggling and niggard don’t sound equally like nigger. “Niggard” sounds like “niggered.” It’s “nigger” with an added D sound on the end which many people around here would probably pronounce hardly at all. (For example, the ending “d” on “Ford” is not particularly stressed.) ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2010, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-used-niggardly-in-conversation/560291/152 "2010-11-12T15:00:20Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > But if I’m walking down the street with someone and notice a lovely tulip poplar, I’m not going to say, “Look at the magnificent _Liriodendron tulipirifa_!” I have a friend who’s a park ranger, and says things _exactly_ like this! Then, speaking to anyone without the right sort of biology background, he’ll give the common names. Sometimes I do something similar, try to have it both ways. I say the word I really want, the perfect connotation–then, if I’m not sure that’s understood, I say a couple more words to explain. So I can make my point and also give a little vocabulary lesson, illustration by usage of course being the best kind of vocabulary lesson. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2010, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-used-niggardly-in-conversation/560291/153 "2010-11-12T15:05:33Z")
[The Master speaks](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1725/is-niggardly-a-racist-word) ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2010, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-used-niggardly-in-conversation/560291/154 "2010-11-12T15:08:00Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Niggling and niggard don’t sound equally like nigger. “Niggard” sounds like “niggered.” It’s “nigger” with an added D sound on the end which many people around here would probably pronounce hardly at all. (For example, the ending “d” on “Ford” is not particularly stressed.) That, surely, is a matter of opinion, and accent. To my mind, “niggling” sounds exactly like a false-cutesy diminutive of “nigger”. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2010, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-used-niggardly-in-conversation/560291/155 "2010-11-12T15:09:51Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > [The Master speaks](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1725/is-niggardly-a-racist-word) Well, the “staff,” anyway. > [@Hispanic-and-span](#): > > If there’s one thing the Straight Dope has taught me, political correctness should always take a back seat to actual correctness. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2010, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-used-niggardly-in-conversation/560291/156 "2010-11-12T15:12:01Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > [The Master speaks](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1725/is-niggardly-a-racist-word) Heh, I liked this quote: > [@](#): > > Howard was pressured to resign by people who, as columnist Tony Snow put it, “actually demanded that he apologize for their ignorance.” ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2010, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-used-niggardly-in-conversation/560291/157 "2010-11-12T15:57:34Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Heh, I liked this quote: Aaaand, every conversation that starts about this word ends up with that quote. Maybe when folks use the word, they should just go ahead and add that quote as a footnote. Save time. ETA: or link to that whole controversy, rather. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2010, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-used-niggardly-in-conversation/560291/158 "2010-11-12T16:18:26Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > That, surely, is a matter of opinion, and accent. To my mind, “niggling” sounds exactly like a false-cutesy diminutive of “nigger”. Are “niggered” and “niggard” homophones for you? Like I said, “niggard” sounds like “nigger” with a d on the end of it. Not for you? niggard: nĭg’ərd nigger: nĭg’ər The difference between “listen” and “listened” is much less than the difference between either and “listing” (those were the closest real words I could come up with) at least to my ear. I might mistake whether someone said “listen” or “listened.” I would never mistake “listing” for either. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2010, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-used-niggardly-in-conversation/560291/159 "2010-11-12T16:25:40Z")
Iused it just the day before yesterday when I complained at a bar that the $1 drafts were being served in niggardly portions. They were using little steins that were about 3 inches thick and held only a few ounces of beer. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2010, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-used-niggardly-in-conversation/560291/160 "2010-11-12T16:29:55Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > The fact that **Marley** was only able to find one instance of a Doper using “niggard” or “niggardly” non-contentiously demonstrates that all this “we must protect the word from the ignorant!” stuff is just a bunch of bull. > [@Malthus](#): > > You are incorrect - Marley found 650 hits for “niggardly” and _stopped looking_ after he found a serious use. **Malthus** is right. I found a serious use of “niggardly” on the third page of search results. A quick glance is one thing, but reading all 650 was more time that I felt like spending on this. But I think it’s obvious that for the most part, people don’t say niggard or niggardly unless they are discussing those words and their sorta-homonyms. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-used-niggardly-in-conversation/560291.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-used-niggardly-in-conversation/560291.md?page=9)