# Have you used niggardly in conversation? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 11, 2010, 9:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-used-niggardly-in-conversation/560291 "2010-11-11T09:25:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2010, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-used-niggardly-in-conversation/560291/161 "2010-11-12T16:39:53Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Are “niggered” and “niggard” homophones for you? Like I said, “niggard” sounds like “nigger” with a d on the end of it. Not for you? Not **Malthus** , but–not for me. “Niggard” gets the emphasis in the second syllable, not the first, and a different second vowel sound. And the D is quite distinct. Actually they’re pretty clearly different, though I suppose you’d have to hear me say both to know that, and the whole point is using the one in contexts when you _won’t_ be pronouncing the other. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2010, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-used-niggardly-in-conversation/560291/162 "2010-11-12T17:02:33Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > Not **Malthus** , but–not for me. “Niggard” gets the emphasis in the second syllable, not the first, and a different second vowel sound. And the D is quite distinct. That’s an idiosyncratic pronunciation, honestly. The emphasis should definitely be on the first syllable, and once that happens, the a is a schwa. Here is a site with an audio pronunciation: [http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/niggard](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/niggard) ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2010, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-used-niggardly-in-conversation/560291/163 "2010-11-12T17:29:50Z")
In theory, I agree that anyone who wishes to use the words “niggard” or “niggardly” should feel free to do so, and that that one dude in Washington shouldn’t have been fired. In practice, I have never seen the word used but in a douchey attempt to be provocative. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2010, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-used-niggardly-in-conversation/560291/164 "2010-11-12T17:38:28Z")
Right. Just say “I think President Obama is too niggardly” and you can snigger at people’s reactions. ---
**Author:** ![gurujulp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ba9def/32.png) [@gurujulp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gurujulp)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2010, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-used-niggardly-in-conversation/560291/165 "2010-11-12T17:50:21Z")
I chose know it and it shouldn’t be used- what I meant that wasn’t available was that I know it and I won’t use it because I don’t trust enough people around me to know that it is not a slur. ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2010, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-used-niggardly-in-conversation/560291/166 "2010-11-12T18:00:47Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > Right. Just say “I think President Obama is too niggardly” and you can snigger at people’s reactions. Well, I’d snicker at the statement, but not because of the use of “niggardly.” Well, _yeah_, it would be because of the word “niggardly,” but only because it’d definitely be the wrong word. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2010, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-used-niggardly-in-conversation/560291/167 "2010-11-12T19:04:44Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Are “niggered” and “niggard” homophones for you? Like I said, “niggard” sounds like “nigger” with a d on the end of it. Not for you? > > niggard: nĭg’ərd > nigger: nĭg’ər > > The difference between “listen” and “listened” is much less than the difference between either and “listing” (those were the closest real words I could come up with) at least to my ear. I might mistake whether someone said “listen” or “listened.” I would never mistake “listing” for either. Honestly, that’s not quite how I’ve heard it pronounced - albeit “niggard” is even less frequently used than “niggardly”. But it hardly matters, as it is obvious (or at least, ought to be obvious) from context whether a slur is intended or not. To go back to the example I gave - can you not see how the word “niggling” could be used in a context where it is obviously insulting, and intended to be? As a diminutive form? I can - “look at all these little nigglings playing in the playground”, while pointing to some Black kids, for example. In contrast, someone going on about how some budget cuts display a “niggardly attitude towards social spending” or whatever, is pretty obviously, in context, not intending to be insulting. Pompous, I’ll grant you. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2010, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-used-niggardly-in-conversation/560291/168 "2010-11-12T20:29:04Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Honestly, that’s not quite how I’ve heard it pronounced - albeit “niggard” is even less frequently used than “niggardly”. > > But it hardly matters, as it is obvious (or at least, ought to be obvious) from context whether a slur is intended or not. I linked to a pronunciation above. You can hear it said. As for context, my husband was from Kentucky. People would drop “nigger” into conversations at what seemed like random intervals to me, and given that a lot of the bitching about black people was how poor and cheap and grasping they are, you’d be astonished how often the same sentence would work for both. They are both disparaging nouns. As for niggling, yeah, I’m sure it’s also used as a slur. I know “niglets” is, as I mentioned in the other thread. And if the whole of the original slur were to call someone a “nig,” that would also make me think of both words at once. It doesn’t now because they aren’t close enough. Nor is “renege.” ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2010, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-used-niggardly-in-conversation/560291/169 "2010-11-12T20:38:03Z")
The poll is running around 70% to around 20%. So, at least here on the SDMB, we are continuing the Fight Against Ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2010, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-used-niggardly-in-conversation/560291/170 "2010-11-12T20:39:06Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > That, surely, is a matter of opinion, and accent. To my mind, “niggling” sounds exactly like a false-cutesy diminutive of “nigger”. It probably is accent. I’d have to pronounce it differently if it were to sound like a false-cutesy diminutive. I pronounce “niggling” more like “nigg-uhh-ling”, whereas if I were to diminutize “nigger” I’d have no schwa in there, so it would be straight up “nigg-ling”. And yeah, I’ve used the word Niggling in real life, since I play Blood Bowl and you have to deal with Niggling Injuries. Only rarely is there a color-based joke made, and gamers are not known to be the most P.C. types, so if it did sound similar you know there would be many more jokes! ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2010, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-used-niggardly-in-conversation/560291/171 "2010-11-12T20:44:32Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > I linked to a pronunciation above. You can hear it said. > > As for context, my husband was from Kentucky. People would drop “nigger” into conversations at what seemed like random intervals to me, and given that a lot of the bitching about black people was how poor and cheap and grasping they are, you’d be astonished how often the same sentence would work for both. They are both disparaging nouns. > > As for niggling, yeah, I’m sure it’s also used as a slur. I know “niglets” is, as I mentioned in the other thread. And if the whole of the original slur were to call someone a “nig,” that would also make me think of both words at once. It doesn’t now because they aren’t close enough. Nor is “renege.” Yeah, I listened to your link. I’m simply saying that’s not how I’ve heard it pronounced. Maybe we up in Canada don’t pronounce it correctly, I dunno. I hear more of a “guard” than a “gerd”, with the emphasis on the second sylable. I also never heard that it was part of the specifically Black racial stereotype that they were “cheap and grasping”, though I don’t doubt some believe it. That’s more of a Jewish stereotype, I would have thought, or Scottish. Though I suppose someone of bad enough racist will can assign a bunch of mutually-contradictory bad attributes to Blacks - they can be both too profligate with their money _and_ too cheap! 😃 In any event, my point stands - it is or ought to be obvious in context whether a person is intending a slur or not, and I find it genuinely difficult to believe that a listener is going to be actually confused about this in all goodwill. The use of the word where it is obviously not intended as a slur and has a perfectly acceptable non-slur meaning is not offensive, merely because it sorta sounds like it might be a slur. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2010, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-used-niggardly-in-conversation/560291/172 "2010-11-12T20:56:09Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > That’s an idiosyncratic pronunciation, honestly. The emphasis should definitely be on the first syllable, and once that happens, the a is a schwa. No, not “definitely.” All words are subject to variations in accent. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2010, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-used-niggardly-in-conversation/560291/173 "2010-11-12T21:03:10Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > It probably is accent. I’d have to pronounce it differently if it were to sound like a false-cutesy diminutive. > > I pronounce “niggling” more like “nigg-uhh-ling”, whereas if I were to diminutize “nigger” I’d have no schwa in there, so it would be straight up “nigg-ling”. > > And yeah, I’ve used the word Niggling in real life, since I play Blood Bowl and you have to deal with Niggling Injuries. Only rarely is there a color-based joke made, and gamers are not known to be the most P.C. types, so if it did sound similar you know there would be many more jokes! Yeah, I pronounce it “nig-gling”, for “niggling doubts”. Certainly not “nigg-uhh-ling”. That too is the pronunciation provided by **jsgoddess** ’s dictionary link: > **[niggling](http://www.thefreedictionary.com/niggling)** > > Definition, Synonyms, Translations of niggling by The Free Dictionary Though as I’ve said, I don’t pronounce (or hear pronounced) “niggardly” as in that same link. Just another illustration that accent and pronunciation aren’t uniform. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2010, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-used-niggardly-in-conversation/560291/174 "2010-11-12T21:48:20Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > The poll is running around 70% to around 20%. So, at least here on the SDMB, we are continuing the Fight Against Ignorance. Though I’m one of those willing to use _niggardly_, I’d not call those who decline to necessarily ignorant. Maybe they’re just nicer than me. That’s not hard. ---
**Author:** ![leander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bcef8e/32.png) [@leander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leander)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2010, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-used-niggardly-in-conversation/560291/175 "2010-11-12T21:52:13Z")
> [@gurujulp](#): > > what I meant that wasn’t available was that I know it and I won’t use it because I don’t trust enough people around me to know that it is not a slur. This. We’re all ignorant of some things and if people around me happen to be ignorant of this particular thing then I would rather not confuse or offend them. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2010, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-used-niggardly-in-conversation/560291/176 "2010-11-12T22:18:49Z")
A picture I just found that seems relevant to the discussion: [http://www.news10.net/genthumb/genthumb.ashx?e=3&h=240&w=320&i=/assetpool/images/100401010841\_Obama-sign-320.jpg](http://www.news10.net/genthumb/genthumb.ashx?e=3&h=240&w=320&i=/assetpool/images/100401010841_Obama-sign-320.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2010, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-used-niggardly-in-conversation/560291/177 "2010-11-13T00:05:55Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > A picture I just found that seems relevant to the discussion: > > [http://www.news10.net/genthumb/genthumb.ashx?e=3&h=240&w=320&i=/assetpool/images/100401010841\_Obama-sign-320.jpg](http://www.news10.net/genthumb/genthumb.ashx?e=3&h=240&w=320&i=/assetpool/images/100401010841_Obama-sign-320.jpg) Yup. You can bet your ass they wouldn’t have used any other synonym there–not because it’s exactly the right word (it’s completely the wrong word, denotatively), but because any other word wouldn’t have been so trolling. IME, this is how the word is most commonly used today; as a result, when I encounter the word, I have an extra processing layer to go through to figure out whether that’s how the word is being used in this case. A careful speaker may decide not to send the audience through that distraction, using instead a different word. This isn’t pandering to ignorance, but is rather attempting a successful and effective communication. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2010, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-used-niggardly-in-conversation/560291/178 "2010-11-13T00:42:51Z")
There’s nothing wrong with the word to me, but I don’t use it in general conversation, because it’s just not a general conversation sort of word among most of the people I hang out with. I could actually see using it in a non-provocative manner with a few of my more erudite friends and acquaintances, but, in general, it would be a sudden shift of diction that would be jarring. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2010, 8:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-used-niggardly-in-conversation/560291/179 "2010-11-13T08:40:25Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > In any event, my point stands - it is or ought to be obvious in context whether a person is intending a slur or not, and I find it genuinely difficult to believe that a listener is going to be actually confused about this in all goodwill. The use of the word where it is obviously not intended as a slur and has a perfectly acceptable non-slur meaning is not offensive, merely because it sorta sounds like it might be a slur. I don’t think it is. If you are in the habit of using that word, and accidentally use it while referring to a black person, and are overheard by someone who doesn’t know you, I really think they will first assume you are making a play on words before they would that you just normally use that word. I mean, niggardly is an insult, so if you use it about a black person, why wouldn’t people think you were using an even more insulting term? If someone pointed out that a black person didn’t leave a tip did so niggardly, do you really think that people knowing what it meant would still not wonder if you were sneaking in a worse insult? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2010, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-used-niggardly-in-conversation/560291/180 "2010-11-13T17:18:14Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Forgive me if I’m wrong, but what started off this “hoopla” in the first place was a media story some years ago about a political aide being _fired_ for using the word. How many years ago was that? Why shouldn’t one person being fired over something years ago be viewed as a isolated incident during a slow news cycle rather than a global movement to stamp the word out of the English lexicon? In 2010, it’s silly for people to still be whining about this. The flap about “niggardly” brings to mind Bill O’Reilly’s so-called War on Christmas. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-used-niggardly-in-conversation/560291.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-used-niggardly-in-conversation/560291.md?page=10)