# Having a 1600 on your SATs and a lawyer doesn't make you God. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 21, 2003, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/having-a-1600-on-your-sats-and-a-lawyer-doesnt-make-you-god/196727 "2003-08-21T17:35:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Nightime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Nightime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nightime)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2003, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/having-a-1600-on-your-sats-and-a-lawyer-doesnt-make-you-god/196727/201 "2003-08-25T22:40:41Z")
Ah, I thought it was his whole senior year he messed up on. So it was only the last semester? ---
**Author:** ![Nightime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Nightime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nightime)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2003, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/having-a-1600-on-your-sats-and-a-lawyer-doesnt-make-you-god/196727/202 "2003-08-25T22:43:07Z")
Actually in the article it says “senior year” so your 1.4 is inaccurate. He got a 2.6, which while obviously not good, is not nearly as bad as what everyone is saying. ---
**Author:** ![mic84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@mic84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mic84)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2003, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/having-a-1600-on-your-sats-and-a-lawyer-doesnt-make-you-god/196727/203 "2003-08-25T22:45:11Z")
Super Gnat – Can I take this to be the restatement of your “who if not the individual should be responsible?”. If so, forget the definitions. If not, please provide the definition yourself; after all, you asked the question and introduced the term, so it’s only fair to use your definition. > [@](#): > > I think I see what you’re saying with the “be punished” bit, but I disagree. If we do not introduce punishment for undesirable actions, then how do we keep people from doing undesirable actions? I’m not saying that, in principle, punishments are bad. However, if an individual does not think that the punishment is just, in no way should they be morally bligated to “accept” the punishment, ie, face it and not try to avoid it. lezlers – > [@](#): > > And mic, I never said he wasn’t admitted because he wasn’t responsible, although that’s certainly true Like I said numerous times, I’m not sure about this, but I take this as an assumption because numerous posters did, and because this is somewhat supported by the cite, in which the officer speaks very unfavourably of the guy’s character. > [@](#): > > He wasn’t admitted because he didn’t fulfill his part of the agreement. If he had accounted for his actions, the college probably would’ve let his previous actions slide, and granted admittance. And this, others and I argued over 3 pages, shouldn’t be. > [@](#): > > And one most certainly should attempt to avoid the consequences if deemed undesirable. They do that by avoiding the action that they know will bring on the consequence. Or by climbing out the window while in detention. > [@](#): > > That’s kinda the whole point of having undesirable consequences for certain actions. There is a difference between the interests of the individual and the interests of society here, obviously. > [@](#): > > _lezlers writes_ > I give up > [@](#): > > _and a few hours and posts later, she writes_ > I honestly don’t understand why you’re not getting this. It occurs to me that perhaps you’re arguing for the sake of arguing Nice debate tactic, that. Enginerd – Like I said earlier, I (and apparently, others) are debating under the assuption that had the guy been more apologetic, he would have been admitted, so his actual qualifications are not really under debate, especially given that we haven’t got enough information. ---
**Author:** ![Tezmac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@Tezmac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tezmac)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2003, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/having-a-1600-on-your-sats-and-a-lawyer-doesnt-make-you-god/196727/204 "2003-08-25T22:45:23Z")
Ah!! My mistake! ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2003, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/having-a-1600-on-your-sats-and-a-lawyer-doesnt-make-you-god/196727/205 "2003-08-25T22:47:28Z")
> [@](#): > > Enginerd – > Like I said earlier, I (and apparently, others) are debating under the assuption that had the guy been more apologetic, he would have been admitted, so his actual qualifications are not really under debate, especially given that we haven’t got enough information. Nice dodge, there. But it won’t wash. Weren’t you the one that was bleating about “nonconstructive”? What is so “nonconstructive” about AP courses, pray tell? Was this kid so “bored” by his “nonconstructive” AP classes that he just _couldn’t…go…on?_ Poor little darling? Please. ---
**Author:** ![lezlers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@lezlers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lezlers)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2003, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/having-a-1600-on-your-sats-and-a-lawyer-doesnt-make-you-god/196727/206 "2003-08-25T22:48:10Z")
**Nightime** , you keep changing your argument. First, he shouldn’t have to go to school if he doesn’t want to, even though his college acceptance rode on it. Then, he shouldn’t have to answer to _me_ (I’m still struggling to understand that one), then he _did_ accept responsibility for his actions, now his grades aren’t as bad as people are saying? Which is it? ---
**Author:** ![lezlers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@lezlers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lezlers)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2003, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/having-a-1600-on-your-sats-and-a-lawyer-doesnt-make-you-god/196727/207 "2003-08-25T22:55:18Z")
Well **mic** , considering that you’re refusing to answer my questions and instead are completely engrossed in your own little circular logic game, I’ll back out of the argument, because it really is pointless. I don’t know how I let myself get dragged in it again. Have fun. ---
**Author:** ![mic84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@mic84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mic84)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2003, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/having-a-1600-on-your-sats-and-a-lawyer-doesnt-make-you-god/196727/208 "2003-08-25T22:55:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by yosemitebabe \* > \*\*Nice dodge, there. But it won’t wash. > > Weren’t you the one that was bleating about “nonconstructive”? > > What is so “nonconstructive” about AP courses, pray tell? Was this kid so “bored” by his “nonconstructive” AP classes that he just _couldn’t…go…on?_ Poor little darling? > > Please. \*\* ## Someone’s been bleating in this thread, all right, but it wasn’t me. I’ve never taken an AP course, I don’t know,(other than nerdgineer’s comment, but then some colleges are a lot like high school so it doesn’t mean a lot) and it’s obviously different from one school to another, anyway. I am honestly not sure if this significantly alters the situation. Maybe. ---
**Author:** ![Nightime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Nightime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nightime)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2003, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/having-a-1600-on-your-sats-and-a-lawyer-doesnt-make-you-god/196727/209 "2003-08-25T22:57:43Z")
> [@](#): > > Nightime, you keep changing your argument. First, he shouldn’t have to go to school if he doesn’t want to, even though his college acceptance rode on it. Then, he shouldn’t have to answer to me (I’m still struggling to understand that one), then he did accept responsibility for his actions, now his grades aren’t as bad as people are saying? Which is it? I never said the school should have to admit him. I said he did not deserve your (or anyone’s) righteous anger because he occasionally avoided a hostile environment after 3 years of hard work, and instead worked on software. I also said I couldn’t believe he wouldn’t promise to do better! Why would he not? Just now doing the math for fun, I realized his grades weren’t nearly so bad as suspected. A C gives a 2.0, so a 2.6 in your last year after 3 years of 3.8’s isn’t so horrendous. I can understand now why he was surprised to have the rug pulled out from under him. ---
**Author:** ![mic84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@mic84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mic84)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2003, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/having-a-1600-on-your-sats-and-a-lawyer-doesnt-make-you-god/196727/210 "2003-08-25T22:58:33Z")
> [@](#): > > Well mic, considering that you’re refusing to answer my questions and instead are completely engrossed in your own little circular logic game, I’ll back out of the argument, because it really is pointless. I don’t know how I let myself get dragged in it again. Backing out? For the third time, is it? See you soon. Which questions? What circular logic other than yours, which I’m not applying? ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2003, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/having-a-1600-on-your-sats-and-a-lawyer-doesnt-make-you-god/196727/211 "2003-08-25T23:12:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by mic84 \* > I’ve never taken an AP course, I don’t know,(other than nerdgineer’s comment, but then some colleges are a lot like high school so it doesn’t mean a lot) and it’s obviously different from one school to another, anyway. I am honestly not sure if this significantly alters the situation. Maybe. Well, we get a “maybe” from you. How amazing. Well, are we going to explore this aspect of the story any further, or are you going to pretend it never existed? And what about you, Nightime? Does this change anything? After all, he (presumably) voluntarily enrolled in these AP classes, which were more challenging than “regular” high school classes—they were more like college level classes. And he screwed up on them. Is this not significant, or is he still some poor misunderstood victim? ---
**Author:** ![furlibusea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@furlibusea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furlibusea)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2003, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/having-a-1600-on-your-sats-and-a-lawyer-doesnt-make-you-god/196727/212 "2003-08-25T23:14:24Z")
I honestly do not understand why anyone is arguing in this kid’s favor. As a teacher and as a parent, I know the best thing I can do for the children placed in my charge is to give them an understanding of consequences. I do not mind being held accountable, but the child has obligations as well. Of course he was well within his rights to blow off the last year of classes. I am well within my rights to call my pricipal an idiot on television too. After that the school is well within their rights to fire me for insubordination, and in this case the school the kid had his heart set on is well within it’s right to refuse him admitance. Honestly. I do not understand parents who sue the school when their child gets caught cheating, or when he gets a bad grade, or doesn’t get to be solo validictorian. Why would you participate bringing up someone you are not going to like in the end. ---
**Author:** ![Nightime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Nightime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nightime)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2003, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/having-a-1600-on-your-sats-and-a-lawyer-doesnt-make-you-god/196727/213 "2003-08-25T23:21:47Z")
I never said he was a victim, or that the school should have to admit him. I just said that I thought they should have admitted him. The AP courses do show that it was probably not the pointlessness of school that caused him not to go, thus making him less sympathetic. We don’t really know why he decided to work on software to the detriment of his school work. Maybe school was a hostile environment. But on the other hand, he didn’t exactly “blow off” his classes. He still got a 2.6 his final year (for comparison, a C gives a 2.0). I can see why he thought graduating on time, with a 3.5 GPA and a 1600 SAT, would be enough. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2003, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/having-a-1600-on-your-sats-and-a-lawyer-doesnt-make-you-god/196727/214 "2003-08-25T23:22:02Z")
Hah! That’s a good question, furlibusea! Perhaps they see it as the best way to get them the heck out of their home? What’s even more amazing to me is the, “you’re paying for it” view of the college education. There’re so many more costs to the education than just the cash the student contributes! ---
**Author:** ![Nightime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Nightime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nightime)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2003, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/having-a-1600-on-your-sats-and-a-lawyer-doesnt-make-you-god/196727/215 "2003-08-25T23:27:23Z")
You know, since he failed a class, he must have had some good grades his last year to balance out to a 2.6. Do we know which classes he did well in and which he did poorly? How do we know he did poorly in the AP classes? ---
**Author:** ![mic84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@mic84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mic84)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2003, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/having-a-1600-on-your-sats-and-a-lawyer-doesnt-make-you-god/196727/216 "2003-08-25T23:27:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by yosemitebabe \* > Well, we get a “maybe” from you. How amazing. > Well, are we going to explore this aspect of the story any further, or are you going to pretend it never existed? I have nothing to add. As I see it now, we can’t really say more unless we’re familiar with the guy’s highschool/teachers. I’m not even familiar with AP courses. furlibusea – > [@](#): > > I honestly do not understand why anyone is arguing in this kid’s favor A good way to go around this is reading the thread. All the points that you raise have been raised already(most, more than once), aside from the point about the parents. ---
**Author:** ![mic84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@mic84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mic84)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2003, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/having-a-1600-on-your-sats-and-a-lawyer-doesnt-make-you-god/196727/217 "2003-08-25T23:36:48Z")
make that “raised and adressed”. ---
**Author:** ![furlibusea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@furlibusea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furlibusea)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2003, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/having-a-1600-on-your-sats-and-a-lawyer-doesnt-make-you-god/196727/218 "2003-08-26T01:02:25Z")
> [@](#): > > - originaly posted by **mic84** \* > A good way to go around this is reading the thread. All the points that you raise have been raised already(most, more than once), aside from the point about the parents. No I read the whole thread. The majority of the arguments seem to be that he shouldn’t be held accountable because school is boring and pointless, and there are better things he could be doing with his time. Some seem to think he is smart enough he shouldn’t have to be held to the standards his lowly classmates are. One person says because he doesn’t agree with the punishment he shouldn’t have to withstand it. (Boy would my daughter love to win on that arguement.) All of it is Bull. Rosa Parks expected to be punished when she didn’t stand on that bus. The men who sat at the Woolworth lunch counter expected to be arrested. Courage is being willing to accept the results of your actions, not having mommy and daddy pony up for a lawyer to get you out of it. ---
**Author:** ![mic84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@mic84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mic84)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2003, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/having-a-1600-on-your-sats-and-a-lawyer-doesnt-make-you-god/196727/219 "2003-08-26T01:21:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by furlibusea \* > (snip) > All of it is Bull. Now that’s insightful. > [@](#): > > Rosa Parks expected to be punished when she didn’t stand on that bus. The men who sat at the Woolworth lunch counter expected to be arrested. Courage is being willing to accept the results of your actions, not having mommy and daddy pony up for a lawyer to get you out of it. I don’t recall anyone in the thread claiming that the guy was courageous. Nor, for that matter, was he protesting, so this analogy doesn’t prove much. ---
**Author:** ![Nightime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Nightime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nightime)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2003, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/having-a-1600-on-your-sats-and-a-lawyer-doesnt-make-you-god/196727/220 "2003-08-26T02:27:01Z")
You are exaggerating how badly he did his senior year. Since he failed one class, he had to average about a B in his other classes in order to keep his GPA at the point it ended at. Haven’t you ever had one horrible class, with a hostile teacher? If not, you are lucky. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/having-a-1600-on-your-sats-and-a-lawyer-doesnt-make-you-god/196727.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/having-a-1600-on-your-sats-and-a-lawyer-doesnt-make-you-god/196727.md?page=12)