# Having a 1600 on your SATs and a lawyer doesn't make you God. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 21, 2003, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/having-a-1600-on-your-sats-and-a-lawyer-doesnt-make-you-god/196727 "2003-08-21T17:35:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![lezlers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@lezlers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lezlers)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2003, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/having-a-1600-on-your-sats-and-a-lawyer-doesnt-make-you-god/196727/141 "2003-08-24T13:57:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Nightime \* > \*\*Are you serious? That’s one sad world you live in. I just wish you wouldn’t try to force everyone else to live there too. > > By the way, all these strawman caricatures of this student are pretty amusing. He obviously _did_ work in high school - for the first three years. The fourth year of high school, for him and many, many others, including myself, is pointless. I had already done as much as high school could provide. I skipped more days than this guy, and only didn’t fail because my teachers didn’t grade on attendance, and I forged a lot of notes. > > At least try to be accurate, people. He worked very well for three years, he was a very bright kid, and because his senior year was pointless, and he stayed home to work on software instead of sleeping through classes (yes, even when I went to school I would just sleep) you are demonizing him. Nice. Apparently you have an axe to grind, so go ahead. Just know that you are being very unfair, and pretty mean. \*\* So learning responsibility and that the world isn’t one big funhouse is a sad world? Well, I suppose someone might feel that way if they never had to assume any responsibilities. Few years in the real world ought to clear that childish sense of entitlement right on up. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![lezlers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@lezlers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lezlers)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2003, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/having-a-1600-on-your-sats-and-a-lawyer-doesnt-make-you-god/196727/142 "2003-08-24T13:59:33Z")
And **county** , are you braindamaged or something? You never _did_ answer my question about what the hell the kids color or athletic ability had to do with anything. ---
**Author:** ![county](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce7236/32.png) [@county](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/county)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2003, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/having-a-1600-on-your-sats-and-a-lawyer-doesnt-make-you-god/196727/143 "2003-08-24T14:20:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lezlers \* > \*\*And **county** , are you braindamaged or something? You never _did_ answer my question about what the hell the kids color or athletic ability had to do with anything. \*\* Well jeez, I’m sorry. Well as far as athletic ability -it would be interesting to see someone their athletic program was courting be turned down - I somehow don’t think it would happen like this was presented. As far as skin color, well that would probably affect the lawsuit. I think anytime you talk about college admissions policies/programs/procedures you need to at least look at those two factors, if for no other reason than to eliminate them as issues. Don’t cha think. ---
**Author:** ![county](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce7236/32.png) [@county](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/county)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2003, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/having-a-1600-on-your-sats-and-a-lawyer-doesnt-make-you-god/196727/144 "2003-08-24T14:22:27Z")
Oh yeah, I’m pretty sure I’m not braindamaged but would I necessarily even know if I was. ---
**Author:** ![lezlers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@lezlers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lezlers)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2003, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/having-a-1600-on-your-sats-and-a-lawyer-doesnt-make-you-god/196727/145 "2003-08-24T14:39:57Z")
Not really, **county**. Contrary to what you may think, race is not an automatic issue in every situation. And most if not all, admission programs that employ racial balancing are very closely monitored. Besides, the acceptance letter was a form of contract. The kid broke it, so his admission was reniged, _for those reasons_. I don’t really like what you’re implying. Race had nothing to do with it, no matter how hard you try to twist the situation into a racial thing, you can’t. No school would be stupid enough to pull that kind of stunt anyway, they’d basically be filing the lawsuit themselves. ---
**Author:** ![county](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce7236/32.png) [@county](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/county)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2003, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/having-a-1600-on-your-sats-and-a-lawyer-doesnt-make-you-god/196727/146 "2003-08-24T14:44:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lezlers \* > \*\*Not really, **county**. Contrary to what you may think, race is not an automatic issue in every situation. And most if not all, admission programs that employ racial balancing are very closely monitored. > > Besides, the acceptance letter was a form of contract. The kid broke it, so his admission was reniged, _for those reasons_. I don’t really like what you’re implying. Race had nothing to do with it, no matter how hard you try to twist the situation into a racial thing, you can’t. No school would be stupid enough to pull that kind of stunt anyway, they’d basically be filing the lawsuit themselves. \*\* I am not implying anything. I am saying it outright. You need to eliminate issues like this up front. I am not trying to twist anything into anything. You need to read the words and give them their face value. Moron. ---
**Author:** ![dangermom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@dangermom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dangermom)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2003, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/having-a-1600-on-your-sats-and-a-lawyer-doesnt-make-you-god/196727/147 "2003-08-24T15:13:43Z")
> [@](#): > > are you aware that a lot of what is going on in high school is actually nonconstructive? That’s not the point at all. Look, the kid signed up for the classes he did badly on under his own free will. He didn’t bother to do the work that he signed up for. If he hadn’t wanted to take the classes or felt they weren’t constructive, he could have done other things, but he didn’t. He didn’t keep up his end of the bargain, and so the university didn’t have to keep its end, either. It’s quite possible in HS senior year to take about 3 classes if you’ve already done the required work and gotten into a college. He probably didn’t even have to take a full load, and he could have gone elsewhere to do the work. ---
**Author:** ![lezlers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@lezlers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lezlers)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2003, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/having-a-1600-on-your-sats-and-a-lawyer-doesnt-make-you-god/196727/148 "2003-08-24T15:29:40Z")
Whatever, **county**. You’ve proved yourself, through this thread and others, to be a complete and utter moron. It’s hard to take some random question, with no explanation given even when asked, tossed in at face value. Also, to deny that it was a loaded question is ridiculous. Why don’t you try actually reading about the situation before yanking out that overused race card, mmmkay? ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2003, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/having-a-1600-on-your-sats-and-a-lawyer-doesnt-make-you-god/196727/149 "2003-08-24T15:55:44Z")
One thing that I think that **county** and **mic84** need to remember is the other, annonymous kid in this equation: the kid that got rejected because of this kid. They have a certain number of slots. Some other kid met most of the requirements but was told “We don’t have room for you. However, if anyone dosen’t come–because they go somewhere else or because they do poorly their senoir year–then you can come, because your application tells us you can do the work.” Now, if that kid were to find out that some kid blew off their senoir year, failed or nearly failed all of his classes, skipped constantly, and still got to go to UNC while he was stuck at his second choice–well, that’s not fair. Two, looking for excuses only **after** the consequences have arrived makes you look whiney and as if you are only trying to justify something. IF the kid had gone to UNC admissions at Xmas and said “Look, I am bored out of my mind. I don’t feel that my school has anything to offer me. I am very excited about this software company that I think I can get up and running. If I were to drop out, get my GED, and take calculus at my local community college, would UNC still honor their admission letter?” and UNC had said “no”, I would by sympathetic to the kid, and understand his frustration., though I would still argue that if he wants to play UNC’s game, he’s gotta play be UNC’s rules. Three, there is always a fundamental divide on these questions between math and science types and liberal arts types. Let me try to explain: In the hard sciences, what a credit **means** is that you have a certain amount of knowledge: you can solve a differential equation or understand the properties of 200 organic compunds. If what a credit means is having knowledge, then classroom attendence is irrelevant: test performance is what matters. In the liberal arts, credits mean something very different. It dosen’t just mean that you know something, because there is no universally agreed upon knowledge. It means that you have had certain experiences: that you have, through exposure to lots of different people, both in person and through their writtings, arrived at a deeper and fuller understanding of human nature and of the world. Assessment in the liberal arts–tests and papers–are a kluge, a stop gap measure because we have to do something and one can’t really quantify the most important part of the course. An example: if someone has a credit for a course on the American novel, what that credit means is that they read a great number of American novels and spent three hours a week for 15 weeks discussing them with others under the guidence of someone who has studied all the novles in depth. Their **grade** maybe, in it’s entirelty, based on a paper on only one of the novels. But the credit stands for the discussions, not just the paper. So a student who never showed up for class but turned in a good paper on one novel shouldn’t get credit, because _they haven’t had the experiences that the credit stands for_. This is fundamentally different from the science/math conception: there, if you pass the final, then you have the knowledge, and since the credit means “you have the knowledge”, you ought to get the credit. Math and science types always have this arguement with liberal arts types but it is really apples and oranges. Both classes award “credits”, but the credits stand for different things. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2003, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/having-a-1600-on-your-sats-and-a-lawyer-doesnt-make-you-god/196727/150 "2003-08-24T16:25:21Z")
Good points, **Manda**. ---
**Author:** ![Rysto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecccb3/32.png) [@Rysto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysto)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2003, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/having-a-1600-on-your-sats-and-a-lawyer-doesnt-make-you-god/196727/151 "2003-08-24T16:26:42Z")
**mic84** , perhaps you can enlighten me. You asked why the kid should have to accept the consequences for his actions. I think that it’s self evident that people have to accept the consequences for their actions. Are we disagreeing on this point, or am I missing something? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2003, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/having-a-1600-on-your-sats-and-a-lawyer-doesnt-make-you-god/196727/152 "2003-08-24T16:34:03Z")
county: Yes, timeliness is important. How’d you feel if you, say, had paid FedEx to deliver something to you overnight and you didn’t get it until the next year? ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2003, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/having-a-1600-on-your-sats-and-a-lawyer-doesnt-make-you-god/196727/153 "2003-08-24T18:11:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fretful Porpentine \* > \*\*The frightening part is that if he wins his case, he could be sitting in my freshman English class six days from now. \*\* Now _this_ is the part I don’t believe. **Fret** , are you saying you haven’t already had him? I’ve only been teaching freshman comp for a year, and I’ve had him at least twice. Expect to meet him again next week, too. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Fretful\_Porpentine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fretful_porpentine/32/2873_2.png) [@Fretful\_Porpentine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fretful_Porpentine)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2003, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/having-a-1600-on-your-sats-and-a-lawyer-doesnt-make-you-god/196727/154 "2003-08-24T18:43:45Z")
Well, come to think of it, he _does_ sound familiar, but last time he was a senior who was about to go into the Marines after graduation. I often wonder what _they_ made of him. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2003, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/having-a-1600-on-your-sats-and-a-lawyer-doesnt-make-you-god/196727/155 "2003-08-24T19:00:32Z")
1600 on his SAT. 3.5 GPA. Guess they mean nothign to you guys. Tough standards, you betcha. What’s the point of even trying with people like you ready to knock a guy down on his first fuckup? Sorry, I’m with the kid on this one. His grades argue for a lot of work in high school, his SAT argues for hard work and great ability. You just have an excuse to shoot the guy down, so you’re doing it. ---
**Author:** ![mic84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@mic84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mic84)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2003, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/having-a-1600-on-your-sats-and-a-lawyer-doesnt-make-you-god/196727/156 "2003-08-24T19:11:18Z")
yosemitebabe – > [@](#): > > Of course the college doesn’t think the tasks they require are “nonconstructive.” > > Neither did this boy’s high school. Most anybody who has ever been to high school knows that it is mostly noncounstructive. High school teachers and administrators have been to high school. Therefore, the know it is nonconstructive. Some will admit it(“Sure I think this is dumb, but that’s what the ministry tells me to teach…” etc), some don’t care if what they’re doing is constructive or not as long as they get they pay > [@](#): > > So why should the college believe that the boy won’t do the same thing with them? Why should they not be concerned that he’ll disagree with their standards of “constructive” and proceed to cherry-pick which tasks he will or will not do? Because he is **right** about high school being nonconstuctive. Because college is really not like high school. Most importantly, because if he’s not interested in the subject matter, it doesn’t make a difference if he tries to force his way through or not - he will have learned very little either way. > [@](#): > > But this boy deemed the high school’s expectations as “nonconstructive” and didn’t do them. He though he did the bare minimum that was required. Apparently, he was wrong. > [@](#): > > So what if it’s circular thinking? > Because he didn’t do it, he’s not in college. End of story. No sympathy for him. Since it circular thinking, the busy work wasn’t shown to have any intrinsic value. I asserted it doesn’t have one, and so the college shouldn’t punish the student for not doing it. I wouldn’t argue that if UNC were a military school. But it’s not. > [@](#): > > Why should they take a chance on him? Why shouldn’t they expect their students to have a history of doing what was expected of them, rather then cherry-picking tasks? Because mindless obedience isn’t a virtue. Also, see above. > [@](#): > > The college is under no obligation to cut him a break, and they didn’t. They figured he knew the score, didn’t abide by it, so they assumed he didn’t care enough UNC is under no obligation to admit him. I doubt they figured he knew that he will be denied admission. It is unreasonable to assume that. > [@](#): > > Well, then he’s pretty stupid and he’s obviously too thick-headed to fit in at that college anyway. That’s a bit far fetched. > [@](#): > > He’s now an object of derision and contempt. So much for “nothing to lose.” Some people don’t care so much about societal approval. > [@](#): > > And yes, by definition, filing a frivolous lawsuit against the college that had every right to reject you (and did) is pretty much akin to whining. Well, it’s a matter of definition I suppose. I don’t think that with the broad definition you use, “whining” retains its negative connotation, though. monstro – > [@](#): > > You seem to think this guy was in the wrong (at least a little bit) for ditching school. Of course he was wrong - he now isn’t in university because of it. > [@](#): > > Yet you don’t think he deserves to face any consequences. He does “deserve” to face the consequences of whatever he does. The consequence of not doing busywork shouldn’t be withdrwal of admission. > [@](#): > > Why? Does his perfect SAT score absolve his responsibility? If we were talking about someone with average marks and scores, would we be having this conversation? > For some reason, folks think he deserve leniency because he’s smart. If we know he’s smart, it is easier to assume that he was bored in high school be tedious and unnecessary(for him) work. If it weren’t obvious that the student is pretty smart, it would be harder to argue that he could tell a tedious and unnecessary task. So perhaps we wouldn’t have this conversation. > [@](#): > > But like I said before, colleges and university don’t just want kids who know a lot of stuff. They want students who have good character traits as well. I don’t think he displayed any bad traits other than some shortsightedness. Not “working hard” on high school work isn’t a demonstration of bad character traits. Like county said, luck of humility during the particular interview isn’t a demonstration of bad character traits. I don’t know why a lot of posters here have a mental image of the guy that is not supported by any evidence. > [@](#): > > ## quote: > > ## Nerds obviously don’t do anything for the community(I suppose you think it’s boring?) ? They think everybody else is dumb? > > By definition, a nerd is a person who is socially retarded with esoteric interests. Nothing wrong with nerds per se, but if I had my choice between a nerd and someone who was smart and yet more balanced and well-rounded, I would choose the latter. Even if the nerd had a 1600 SAT and the other candidate had a score much less perfect. That’s some image to have of the group of people who do well on the SAT, dislike high school, and are good with computers. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > I’m not saying the kid is a nerd. My point is that schools care more about grades and scores. Again, I see nothing wrong with the guy. ---
**Author:** ![mic84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@mic84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mic84)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2003, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/having-a-1600-on-your-sats-and-a-lawyer-doesnt-make-you-god/196727/157 "2003-08-24T19:25:17Z")
genie – My point is that the guy was required to make a non-trivial effort that resulted in nothing but him winning a silly game of college admission(unless it didn’t, but we don’t know that). I’m not saying he didn’t lost the game, because he did; I’m saying the rules of the game should be changed. Manda JO > [@](#): > > Now, if that kid were to find out that some kid blew off their senoir year, failed or nearly failed all of his classes, skipped constantly, and still got to go to UNC while he was stuck at his second choice–well, that’s not fair. A fair point, but since the guy was given an interview, it implies that he had a chance of getting admitted. If something he could say could get him admitted - anything should have got him admitted. Admission is not about being fair or who does the most effort – it’s about who has the most potential to learn. Any decision between candidates who are close on the list can be said to unfair. > [@](#): > > Three, there is always a fundamental divide on these questions between math and science types and liberal arts types. Let me try to explain: Very interesting, I never thought of it this way.I kind of though that my mark in the humanities depends on the amount and eloquence of cool though(aka BS, depending on the mood) I could write in a given amount of time. Works pretty well as a predictor. ---
**Author:** ![mic84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@mic84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mic84)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2003, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/having-a-1600-on-your-sats-and-a-lawyer-doesnt-make-you-god/196727/158 "2003-08-24T19:33:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Rysto \* > \*\ ***mic84** , perhaps you can enlighten me. You asked why the kid should have to accept the consequences for his actions. I think that it’s self evident that people have to accept the consequences for their actions. Are we disagreeing on this point, or am I missing something? \*\* I don’t know. I guess it depends on what it means to accept. Let me illustrate: Suppose Johnny, knowing full-well that he’ll be in detention for being late to class(a policy in my HS, which was never applied to me), doesn’t get out of the warm bed soon enough, and is late. Now, he thinks it’s all stupid, so he jumps out the window and goes home. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. Suppose Johnny tells his Mom that he was being punished because the teacher is silly. I see nothing wrong with that either, because it is mostly true. Suppose Johnny says that he couldn’t help being punished - now this is just not true, and there’s no reason for him to think that way. ---
**Author:** ![mic84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@mic84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mic84)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2003, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/having-a-1600-on-your-sats-and-a-lawyer-doesnt-make-you-god/196727/159 "2003-08-24T19:35:04Z")
> [@](#): > > cool though means “cool thoughts”. Sorry for the multiple posting. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2003, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/having-a-1600-on-your-sats-and-a-lawyer-doesnt-make-you-god/196727/160 "2003-08-24T19:37:17Z")
> [@](#): > > A fair point, but since the guy was given an interview, it implies that he had a chance of getting admitted. If something he could say could get him admitted - anything should have got him admitted. Admission is not about being fair or who does the most effort – it’s about who has the most potential to learn. Any decision between candidates who are close on the list can be said to unfair. Right, and to minimize that unfairness, it’s important to stick to the terms as they are set out. The interview was appropriate incase there were some truly extenuating circumstances–he or a parent had cancer or something. Barring something like that, his slot should have gone to someone who hadn’t demonstrated a tendency to lose their momentum in the home stretch. > [@](#): > > Very interesting, I never thought of it this way.I kind of though that my mark in the humanities depends on the amount and eloquence of cool though(aka BS, depending on the mood) I could write in a given amount of time. Works pretty well as a predictor. There is a difference between your mark (or grade) and the credit. In the sciences, a grade can have a pretty strong coorelation to the percentage of the knowledge mastered. It’s a great deal more nebulous in the liberal arts. What’s at issue here is not what the grade means but what having the credit at all means: if you take a class on 18th C philosophy, you may only write papers on Voltaire, and your grade comes from the skill with which you wrote your paper on Voiltaire, but the **credit** says that you can converse intelligently about Voltaire and Hume and Kant and Mills, whether or not you even once touched on any of them in a written assignment. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/having-a-1600-on-your-sats-and-a-lawyer-doesnt-make-you-god/196727.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/having-a-1600-on-your-sats-and-a-lawyer-doesnt-make-you-god/196727.md?page=9)