# Having Babies on the Taxpayer Dime: What, if anything, to do? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 27, 2014, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/having-babies-on-the-taxpayer-dime-what-if-anything-to-do/684722 "2014-03-27T23:12:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/having-babies-on-the-taxpayer-dime-what-if-anything-to-do/684722/101 "2014-04-02T23:47:36Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > What I am saying is that BEFORE we decide to start sterilizing people simply for being poor (which is what is really being proposed here) we should get a DNA sample from _every single man in this country_ so when a baby is born and the mom says “I don’t know who the daddy is” he can be located anyway and, if he does have some form of income, it can be garnished so he is supporting his child rather than the state. > > As another side effect, it will make solving a lot of other crimes easier, too. > > If we’re going to hold the mothers responsible then we should use whatever technology we have available to hold the fathers equally responsible. Holy. No need for the futuristic dystopian police state. If both parents won’t help out, then lets just throw the baby in the garbage. Save everyone the trouble. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2014, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/having-babies-on-the-taxpayer-dime-what-if-anything-to-do/684722/102 "2014-04-03T00:11:52Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > There is no treatment that effective for _any_ addiction, so I guess we’ll just have to take away the kids not only of anyone on street drugs or alcohol but also anyone taking prescription drugs long-term or who smoke (either tobacco or weed, doesn’t matter). Yes, smoking too - nicotine is just as much an addiction as anything else and exposing kids to that shit second hand can fuck up their immune systems and lungs for life. True. Then there’s the atheism factor. Most kids like to belong, and nothing beats a good strong two-parent consistent religious upbringing when it comes to belonging. It really hurts kids when either parent is insufficiently religious, as documented here: [http://cassian.memphis.edu/efiles/08april21/pdfs/levin\_article.pdf](http://cassian.memphis.edu/efiles/08april21/pdfs/levin_article.pdf) By including sterilization of both agnostics and atheists, we’ll be giving the world assurance that America’s embrace of eugenics is an even-handed attempt to help children, rather than an assault on the poor. What’s not to like? P.S. I hope the irony above was clear enough not to require emoticons. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2014, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/having-babies-on-the-taxpayer-dime-what-if-anything-to-do/684722/103 "2014-04-05T00:29:25Z")
The slippery slope is a logical fallacy. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/having-babies-on-the-taxpayer-dime-what-if-anything-to-do/684722/104 "2014-04-08T08:01:31Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > None of those children are the result of immaculate conceptions. Why aren’t the fathers also being held responsible? Screw the birth control - mandatory paternity tests and DNA records of every man in America. Make the fathers take responsibility for their wild oats instead of, once again, punishing the women and children. Unless we are talking about rape, we probably have a reasonably good idea of who the father is but the mothers won’t always tell us who to go after. Are you under the impression that we could take a child’s DNA and compare it to a universal catalog of all male DNA in America and identify the father? We would identify thousands of fathers for every child. > [@Broomstick](#): > > Yes, that housing bubble was so beneficial to the nation. We’ve had the home mortgage deduction since the great depression. That home mortgage deduction induced bubble certainly took its time, didn’t it?:rolleyes: > [@](#): > > No, _we don’t have welfare at all anymore_ in the sense you mean it. NO ONE in the US is paying anyone to have kids. Wait, so now we don’t even have TANF or SNAP anymore? > [@](#): > > The purpose of TANF is assist people in raising the kids _they already have_. Yeah, no shit and I don’t think they should have any more kids until they can support them. > [@](#): > > The purpose of food stamps isn’t to encourage people to pop out more babies, it’s to enable people to eat who have insufficient income to buy adequate food - _including people who don’t have children at all_. I’m willing to pay for food stamps for anyone that needs it. If contraception fails and you get pregnant, you can go ahead and have your kid and I won’t bitch about food stamps for that kid either. But I think you should stop having kids and I’m willing to force contraception on you until you can afford to raise your own kids. > [@](#): > > Seriously, the portion of your, personal taxes that go to supporting poor people is pennies at most - and you’re too selfish to grant them that without invading their bodies and subjecting them to involuntary medical treatments. Calm down. Noone is being selfish here. Selfishness is not why I want them to force effective contraception on those poor who would not welcome it, its because they are such shitty decision-makers that I am willing to make their decisions for them. > [@](#): > > Because the Chinese seem able to stop themselves before it gets to the point of genocide but people of European descent, based on the historical records, can’t. So China can avoid this dystopia you fear but America (the birthplace of modern democracy and beacon to the world) would turn into Nazi Germany??? > [@](#): > > Also, China’s one-child policy applies to EVERYBODY. It not one rule for the elite and one for the masses. Unlike what you propose, which is to prevent those nasty poor people from reproducing but the rich and elite can produce as many brats as they desires. What you’re saying is that poor people aren’t as worthy, and that’s what starts the slip on the slope to the sort of mess we saw in WWII. Yes, this rule would only apply to the poor for as long as they remain poor. The thing about the rich and elite is that they are not reproducing very much. Do you think single children are more common in households with incomes above the median or below the median? What do you think the average family size is in the top 10% versus the bottom 10%? > [@](#): > > And they were wrong for doing so even if they otherwise did great things with their lives. You were talking about the company I kept. That is the company I am keeping. The list is longer than just Hitler and Goering. > [@Broomstick](#): > > Easy to say when it is YOU who face forcible sterilization. You are correct. I am male and I don’t run much of a risk of being on welfare but that doesn’t mean I can’t make rules for situations I would never face myself. > [@Broomstick](#): > > What I am saying is that BEFORE we decide to start sterilizing people simply for being poor (which is what is really being proposed here) we should get a DNA sample from _every single man in this country_ so when a baby is born and the mom says “I don’t know who the daddy is” he can be located anyway and, if he does have some form of income, it can be garnished so he is supporting his child rather than the state. > > As another side effect, it will make solving a lot of other crimes easier, too. > > If we’re going to hold the mothers responsible then we should use whatever technology we have available to hold the fathers equally responsible. Why can’t the mother tell us who the father is? Its what paternity suits are about, right? Oh wait, thats right, a lot of single mothers won’t tell us who the father is. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2014, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/having-babies-on-the-taxpayer-dime-what-if-anything-to-do/684722/105 "2014-04-19T04:24:19Z")
In that bastion of Naziism, California: [Sterilization Abuse in State Prisons: Time to Break With California's Long Eugenic Patterns | HuffPost Latest News](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alex-stern/sterilization-california-prisons_b_3631287.html) They actually sterilize women in prison there (but oddly enough, not the me, if I was going the sterilization route rather than the contraception route, it seems to me that a vasectomy would be a lot easier and cheaper than tubal ligation). ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2014, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/having-babies-on-the-taxpayer-dime-what-if-anything-to-do/684722/106 "2014-04-19T04:53:17Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > They actually sterilize women in prison there (but oddly enough, not **the me** , if I was going the sterilization route rather than the contraception route, it seems to me that a vasectomy would be a lot easier and cheaper than tubal ligation). (bolding mine)“the me”? Just a _little_ pretentious, don’t you think? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2014, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/having-babies-on-the-taxpayer-dime-what-if-anything-to-do/684722/107 "2014-04-20T04:35:15Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > (bolding mine)“the me”? Just a _little_ pretentious, don’t you think? 😃 Damuri Ajashi does not respond to such silly nitpicking because We are above that. We normally wouldn’t even respond but We didn’t want to seem pretentious. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2014, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/having-babies-on-the-taxpayer-dime-what-if-anything-to-do/684722/108 "2014-04-20T12:54:12Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > In that bastion of Naziism, California: [Sterilization Abuse in State Prisons: Time to Break With California's Long Eugenic Patterns | HuffPost Latest News](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alex-stern/sterilization-california-prisons_b_3631287.html) > > They actually sterilize women in prison there . . . . Here is a link from your link: [http://cironline.org/reports/female-inmates-sterilized-california-prisons-without-approval-4917](http://cironline.org/reports/female-inmates-sterilized-california-prisons-without-approval-4917) So the issue is that maybe several dozen women a year are (or, I hope, were) being pressured – not forced – to agree to tubal ligation after giving birth in prison: > [@](#): > > Crystal Nguyen, a former Valley State Prison inmate who worked in the prison’s infirmary during 2007, said she often overheard medical staff asking inmates who had served multiple prison terms to agree to be sterilized. > > “I was like, ‘Oh my God, that’s not right,’ ” Nguyen, 28, said. “Do they think they’re animals, and they don’t want them to breed anymore?” > > One former Valley State inmate who gave birth to a son in October 2006 said the institution’s OB-GYN, Dr. James Heinrich, repeatedly pressured her to agree to a tubal ligation. > > “As soon as he found out that I had five kids, he suggested that I look into getting it done. The closer I got to my due date, the more he talked about it,” said Christina Cordero, 34, who spent two years in prison for auto theft. “He made me feel like a bad mother if I didn’t do it.” Without hearing the physician’s side of the story, I’m not sure that anything remarkable happened here. Even if there was some pressure in how docs asked the question, it is nothing like China. By the way, the US fertility rate has now dropped to 1.9 – that is, below replacement: > **[World Bank Open Data](https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.DYN.TFRT.IN)** > > Free and open access to global development data This thread is based on a short-term problem that is a long-term partial solution. In most Western countries, probably now including the US, the real problem will be the eldercare freeloaders – the people who did not bear children, and paid into these sorts of systems much less money than they are taking out. Of course, I don’t want to stop such freeloading. The childless, and those with only children, shouldn’t be forced to have more children any more than the poor should be forced not to. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Nylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/77aa72/32.png) [@Mr.Nylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Nylock)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2014, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/having-babies-on-the-taxpayer-dime-what-if-anything-to-do/684722/109 "2014-04-20T13:10:28Z")
For starters, how much of a taxpayer drain is this really, in the grand scheme of things? Your title suggests a public policy concern, but the rest of the OP seems mired in moral judgement. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2014, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/having-babies-on-the-taxpayer-dime-what-if-anything-to-do/684722/110 "2014-04-20T23:37:40Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > So China can avoid this dystopia you fear but America (the birthplace of modern democracy and beacon to the world) would turn into Nazi Germany??? Seriously? You think _China_ is a good example? They’re not exactly known for being a free country. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/having-babies-on-the-taxpayer-dime-what-if-anything-to-do/684722/111 "2014-04-21T00:44:44Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > Here is a link from your link: > > [http://cironline.org/reports/female-inmates-sterilized-california-prisons-without-approval-4917](http://cironline.org/reports/female-inmates-sterilized-california-prisons-without-approval-4917) > > So the issue is that maybe several dozen women a year are (or, I hope, were) being pressured – not forced – to agree to tubal ligation after giving birth in prison: > > Without hearing the physician’s side of the story, I’m not sure that anything remarkable happened here. Even if there was some pressure in how docs asked the question, it is nothing like China. > > By the way, the US fertility rate has now dropped to 1.9 – that is, below replacement: > > [Fertility rate, total (births per woman) | Data](http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.DYN.TFRT.IN) > > This thread is based on a short-term problem that is a long-term partial solution. In most Western countries, probably now including the US, the real problem will be the eldercare freeloaders – the people who did not bear children, and paid into these sorts of systems much less money than they are taking out. > > Of course, I don’t want to stop such freeloading. The childless, and those with only children, shouldn’t be forced to have more children any more than the poor should be forced not to. I just linked that story to juxtapose my proposal to force contraception on women who should be choosing to engage in contraception themselves v. the state of California that is pressuring women to undergo irreversible sterilization. There is a big difference between contraception and sterilization. I think the best way to improve fertility among the middle class is to make college free. > [@Guinastasia](#): > > Seriously? You think _China_ is a good example? They’re not exactly known for being a free country. :dubious: And yet they did not descend into Naziism after adopting the one child solution. In fact they seemed to go the other way. China is freer today than they were when they adopted the one child policy, right? It may not be free enough for your tastes but it is freer, right? My point is that forced contraception of the welfare roll is not the first step on the slippery slope to gas chambers and concentration camps. ---
**Author:** ![storyguide3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@storyguide3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/storyguide3)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/having-babies-on-the-taxpayer-dime-what-if-anything-to-do/684722/112 "2014-04-22T16:55:27Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > And yet they did not descend into Naziism after adopting the one child solution. In fact they seemed to go the other way. China is freer today than they were when they adopted the one child policy, right? It may not be free enough for your tastes but it is freer, right? They merely descended into forced abortions ( including late term abortions) and forced sterilizations. And although those activities have supposedly been banned by Beijing in later years, they still occur. And since you can pay a fine to have a second unplanned child, the wealthy are treated differently under OCP as well, so it is far from a fair system. But hey, 400 million “averted” people, according to government statistics. Also over 330 million abortions. China and the OCP is really not something that anyone with any compassion at all should be pointing towards as a good idea. As far as I can tell, it is pretty roundly decried as a massive human rights violation. Also - “one child solution”?? If you are trying to deflect Nazi comparisons, possibly not the best choice of words. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/having-babies-on-the-taxpayer-dime-what-if-anything-to-do/684722/113 "2014-04-22T18:47:08Z")
> [@storyguide3](#): > > They merely descended into forced abortions ( including late term abortions) and forced sterilizations. And although those activities have supposedly been banned by Beijing in later years, they still occur. > > And since you can pay a fine to have a second unplanned child, the wealthy are treated differently under OCP as well, so it is far from a fair system. But hey, 400 million “averted” people, according to government statistics. Also over 330 million abortions. > > China and the OCP is really not something that anyone with any compassion at all should be pointing towards as a good idea. As far as I can tell, it is pretty roundly decried as a massive human rights violation. > > Also - “one child solution”?? If you are trying to deflect Nazi comparisons, possibly not the best choice of words. So stilll no gas chambers or death camps, right? Is the word “solution” now linked with nazis? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/having-babies-on-the-taxpayer-dime-what-if-anything-to-do/684722/114 "2014-04-23T06:15:19Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > So stilll no gas chambers or death camps, right? > > Is the word “solution” now linked with nazis? So human rights violations are a-okay, just so long as we don’t actually go as far as the Nazis did, then. Gotcha. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/having-babies-on-the-taxpayer-dime-what-if-anything-to-do/684722/115 "2014-04-23T19:46:56Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > So human rights violations are a-okay, just so long as we don’t actually go as far as the Nazis did, then. Gotcha. Have you been following the conversation at all? Broomstick said that reproductive rights shouldn’t be in the hands of the government because of what happens when we give government power over fertility issues (obviously referring to Nazi Germany, apparently eugenics is what got the ball rolling). > [@Broomstick](#): > > So roll your eyes all you want - eugenics, which is what you’re talking about, did in fact lead to the Nazi death camps. So I once again noted that China has exercised extreme control over reproduction for generations and has not descended into concentration camps, et al. So why would you think that America would do that sort of stuff. Then Broomstick noted that white folks can’t stop themselves: > [@Broomstick](#): > > Because the Chinese seem able to stop themselves before it gets to the point of genocide but people of European descent, based on the historical records, can’t. So I pointed out that while eugenics was not a slippery slope to death camps in China, Broomstick thought that eugenics would start us down a slippery slope towards death camps in America because, well, white people are like that. THEN you chime in as if I was presenting China as some sort of shining beacon of human rights. I even pointed out that you were misreading what i was saying: > [@damuri](#): > > And yet they did not descend into Naziism after adopting the one child solution. In fact they seemed to go the other way. China is freer today than they were when they adopted the one child policy, right? It may not be free enough for your tastes but it is freer, right? > > **My point is that forced contraception of the welfare roll is not the first step on the slippery slope to gas chambers and concentration camps.** Then you decided that this thread was about China’s human rights record. I’m not defending China’s human rights record or their one child policy. I am pointing out that even a country like China was not pushed down a slippery slope towards death camps because it implemented the one child policy (a policy that is much more severe than what I am proposing (contraception for people on welfare)) so why would you start getting hysterical about the USA starting down a slippery slope towards Nazi Germany if we force contraception on welfare recipients. Do you think that forced contraception of welfare recipients (who have at least one child) would result a descent towards nazi gemrany death camps? If not then I don’t know WTF you are going on about. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/having-babies-on-the-taxpayer-dime-what-if-anything-to-do/684722.md?page=5)