# Having large families when you can't afford them **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 2, 2007, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/having-large-families-when-you-cant-afford-them/394248 "2007-03-02T00:35:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2007, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/having-large-families-when-you-cant-afford-them/394248/81 "2007-03-02T18:48:02Z")
[QUOTE=olivesmarch4th] Are you using the ‘‘general’’ you here? Because I’ve specifically made it a point not to have kids until I have a degree that will enable me to work in my field professionally. _I_ will be just fine (being married, it’s easier to pool resources.) I was using the disparity between my husband and I as a hypothetical. [/quote] Understood. Generic “you”. [QUOTE=olivesmarch4th] Sounds good. I let my emotions get the better of me and I apologize. At this point I’m more interested in figuring out a reasonable solution to this phenomenon anyways. But I do have to leave now. Olives. [/QUOTE] Thanks. Reciprocated. There are few enough hereabouts who will apologise even when they’re clearly in the wrong… generally including me. Well wishes! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Sattua](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sattua/32/11906_2.png) [@Sattua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sattua)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2007, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/having-large-families-when-you-cant-afford-them/394248/82 "2007-03-02T19:14:14Z")
As far as long-lasting birth control, there is Depo, but also Norplant and IUDs. They’re all sort of invasive and can have yucky side effects, but surely one of the three would be workable for a large number of people. I think pills, patches, etc. wouldn’t be worth it–I have a relative and a friend who both ended up on welfare precisely because they were too scatterbrained to take pills on time. One of them actually had a baby because she forgot to get her Norplant recharged (duh-uhh…) Now. Let’s develop a shot that kills sperm over a long period of time. I really do think it’s reasonable that anyone taking government assistance should be subject to mandatory birth control–and also as mentioned earlier in this thread, that what food stamps can buy should exclude some of the most egregious junk food. I mean… you’re benefitting from the nanny state, you’d better be ready for the nanny state to tell you to eat your vegetables and behave yourself on the playground. Frankly, if I had to go on welfare, I’d welcome the free birth control. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2007, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/having-large-families-when-you-cant-afford-them/394248/83 "2007-03-02T19:23:52Z")
[QUOTE=Dangerosa] . “If you wait until you can afford kids, you’ll never have them” - for most people, pretty true. Even middle class people. Few people - college educated, experienced beyond being a teenager, stop to consider how expensive kids are before they have them. Most people find a way to afford the kids they have, not the kids they plan. . [/QUOTE] Sure, but after your first kid you know how much one will cost (ie. more than you think). If you can’t afford the first one, or aren’t finding it easy, anyway, is it suddenly going to be easier once you hit two, three, or six? -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2007, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/having-large-families-when-you-cant-afford-them/394248/84 "2007-03-02T19:40:05Z")
So, is this just a rant or is anyone interested in doing some real GD-style analysis on this issue? Because I think if you dig into the numbers of people living on welfare, the percentages of taxes going towards supporting them, and the numbers for generational welfare families(kids born on welfare, rasiing kids on welfare) I think they’ll show this to be much ado about almost nothing. I guarantee we’ve spent more tax money on much less noble endeavors than we do on supporting the populations targeted by the OP(large welfare families). Any interest? Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2007, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/having-large-families-when-you-cant-afford-them/394248/85 "2007-03-02T19:46:19Z")
[QUOTE=Sattua] Now. Let’s develop a shot that kills sperm over a long period of time. [/quote] Not a doctor, nor any kind of medical specialist, but my understanding is that unless the guy is dead, them wrigglers keep getting made and won’t stop. It’s easier to deal with a single egg, or implanted blastocyst. It doesn’t change the political and poetic reasons for wanting to be able to control male gamete production, but I understand why it’s so hard to do. > [@](#): > > I really do think it’s reasonable that anyone taking government assistance should be subject to mandatory birth control–and also as mentioned earlier in this thread, that what food stamps can buy should exclude some of the most egregious junk food. I mean… you’re benefitting from the nanny state, you’d better be ready for the nanny state to tell you to eat your vegetables and behave yourself on the playground. > > Frankly, if I had to go on welfare, I’d welcome the free birth control. I’m not even sure about mandatory birth control - not as a general policy. I’d like to see incentives for it, but I’d be worried where forcing it as a general policy might lead. Does that mean, for example, that any student getting Federal or State aid for college should be taking birth control, too? I agree it’s smarter than going without, but does society have the right to insist on that, even if society is paying some of the person’s school bills? (No, I’m not saying that I believe educational assistance is welfare, really - just that it’s the sort of program creep I would worry about with that kind of policy.) Mind you, if the courts can prove that they’ve found a man who has been fathering as many kids as he could, with niether intent nor ability to offer support, (I believe there has been a case of this, but my Google-fu isn’t up to bringing it up, now.) I’ve got no problem with ordering a vasectomy as being in the public interest. ---
**Author:** ![Sattua](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sattua/32/11906_2.png) [@Sattua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sattua)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2007, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/having-large-families-when-you-cant-afford-them/394248/86 "2007-03-02T19:59:46Z")
[QUOTE=OtakuLoki] Not a doctor, nor any kind of medical specialist, but my understanding is that unless the guy is dead, them wrigglers keep getting made and won’t stop. It’s easier to deal with a single egg, or implanted blastocyst. … does society have the right to insist on that, even if society is paying some of the person’s school bills? (No, I’m not saying that I believe educational assistance is welfare, really - just that it’s the sort of program creep I would worry about with that kind of policy.) … Mind you, if the courts can prove that they’ve found a man who has been fathering as many kids as he could, with niether intent nor ability to offer support, [/QUOTE] As a woman, I do get irritated that the onus of birth control always falls on us. I guess it’s our duty. A controlled-release implant that killed sperm though? Over the course of a few months? Maybe? Please? Just temporarily damaging the man’s fertility would help… I had thought about saying “welfare” instead of “government assistance” and decided not to because I thought it was more likely to anger the people who are already angry here. It’s unquestionably in everyone’s best interest that the institutionalized mentally ill not reproduce, but what about people on disability? I’m not comfortable with denying reproductive capacity to them. Sorry I made the wrong choice of words. Third point, I do have an anecdote: my bum cousin’s long-term boyfriend, whose modus operandi is to move in with a woman and have as many children as possible, so that he can stay home and “take care” of them instead of getting a job. He had three kids with the first baby momma, three kids with my cousin, and has now moved on to another (when cousin kicked him out after finding crack for the second time). And there is also the scenario mentioned earlier, in which the culture makes lots of kids desirable, so people have no intention of using any birth control. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2007, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/having-large-families-when-you-cant-afford-them/394248/87 "2007-03-02T20:05:25Z")
[QUOTE=gonzomax] We all lack sympathy for the adults. But it is not the kids fault. Do we ignore them because their parents lack logic. The kids have to be supported enough to have a chance to succeed. Hating the adults doesn’t make the children go away. [/QUOTE] A humble suggestion, lets eat them! A young healthy child well nursed, is, at a year old, a most delicious nourishing and wholesome food, whether stewed, roasted, baked, or boiled; and I make no doubt that it will equally serve in a fricassee, or a ragout. CMC fnord! Swift wasn’t being serious, but I am. The future we’re offering to these children sounds so bleak (orphanages, sterilization, starvation and homelessness) that it would be better, or at least more honest, to treat them as a commodity, then to continue to pretend that we actually care about their futures. [QUOTE=pizzabrat] Free nothing - how about not treating any “certain groups” like the mentally challenged who need to be coaxed into functional behaviors with subtle manipulation by enlightened members of society and let cold hard life do it instead. However short one’s foresight, a real threat of starvation and homelessness will eventually get through to anyone… [/QUOTE] I’m sure all the mentally challenged need is some tough love to get them off their lazy asses. ---
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2007, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/having-large-families-when-you-cant-afford-them/394248/88 "2007-03-02T20:14:41Z")
**Sattua** , I wasn’t trying to accuse you of anything, nor am I angry with your suggestion. Just explaining while the idea seems to have merit, I’m really (and perhaps irrationally) afraid of what might happen if the government has the right, as a general practice, to decide who may and may not have children. I’m not sure if that came through clear, or not, to you. As for the onus of birth control - I believe it’s the guy’s responsibility to make sure that it’s being used. If they can develop a pill for guys that will prevent the production of viable sprem, but only during use, I’d support it’s use extensively. (I’m not going to say I’d use it, myself. Since I last came close to having sex before the turn of the millenium, I have difficulty thinking it’s any kind of issue for me, personally.) But I think it’s realistic, at least, to say that a woman has more incentive to be certain of birth control than a man does. I don’t want to make it sound like that I believe it’s only the woman’s responsibility - I don’t believe that. I do believe that two, independant methods are better than one. ---
**Author:** ![Sattua](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sattua/32/11906_2.png) [@Sattua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sattua)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2007, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/having-large-families-when-you-cant-afford-them/394248/89 "2007-03-02T20:24:32Z")
[QUOTE=OtakuLoki] **Sattua** , I wasn’t trying to accuse you of anything, nor am I angry with your suggestion. Just explaining while the idea seems to have merit, I’m really (and perhaps irrationally) afraid of what might happen if the government has the right, as a general practice, to decide who may and may not have children. I’m not sure if that came through clear, or not, to you. [/QUOTE] No no, I read your post as being very calm. I hope you read mine that way, too. The reason that I’m not very scared by the idea of the government controlling the fertility of people on welfare \*while they are on welfare \* is that the welfare system is equal-opportunity. Anyone can get into it, and anyone (theoretically) can get out of it. Now someone will come along and explain to me that the system is racist/ageist/culturalist/classist and that people can’t get out of it. ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2007, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/having-large-families-when-you-cant-afford-them/394248/90 "2007-03-02T20:37:42Z")
I wasn’t aware that reproductive freedom was so unpopular. Doesn’t anyone who receives any kind of anti-poverty assistance by definition have more kids than they can afford? Assuming, you know, that they have kids? ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2007, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/having-large-families-when-you-cant-afford-them/394248/91 "2007-03-02T20:41:30Z")
> [@](#): > > **OtakuLoki** said: > As for the onus of birth control - I believe it’s the guy’s responsibility to make sure that it’s being used. You don’t believe females have any responsibility at all to use birth control to prevent children they can’t afford? ---
**Author:** ![pizzabrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9c0ed/32.png) [@pizzabrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pizzabrat)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2007, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/having-large-families-when-you-cant-afford-them/394248/92 "2007-03-02T20:42:50Z")
[QUOTE=OtakuLoki] As for the onus of birth control - I believe it’s the guy’s responsibility to make sure that it’s being used. [/QUOTE] Nnnnooo… that’s not how economics works. If a mutual transaction between two persons can cause disproportionate consequences to one of those persons should something go wrong, self-interest and common sense should tell the person with the most to lose that she herself should be the most vigilant in preventing the possible fallout. Adherence to any other expectation because it meshes better with your egalitarian sensibilities or ideology of chivalry will show you losing and falling hard (see large population of single mothers). ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2007, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/having-large-families-when-you-cant-afford-them/394248/93 "2007-03-02T20:44:39Z")
[QUOTE=saoirse] I wasn’t aware that reproductive freedom was so unpopular. Doesn’t anyone who receives any kind of anti-poverty assistance by definition have more kids than they can afford? Assuming, you know, that they have kids? [/QUOTE] Not at all. All it would take would be for someone to lose their job or jobs for a while and they might end up needing assistance. Maybe they have a kid or three. But maybe in that situation they should not have more kids until they’ve got things under control. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2007, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/having-large-families-when-you-cant-afford-them/394248/94 "2007-03-02T20:56:31Z")
BTW, the person who described a woman who’s got 3 or 4 kids by 3 or 4 different men and gets WIC, food stamps, and goes to work just long enough to requalify for welfare, I think you have met my friend’s sister. She’s got three kids, three baby-daddies, WIC, food stamps, government subsidized housing, has held a job for six months (nonconsecutive), is a high school drop out, and this year will be 21. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2007, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/having-large-families-when-you-cant-afford-them/394248/95 "2007-03-02T21:33:38Z")
[QUOTE=Mtgman] So, is this just a rant or is anyone interested in doing some real GD-style analysis on this issue? [/QUOTE] Let me check the forum… BBQ PIT… rant. [QUOTE=Mtgman] Because I think if you dig into the numbers of people living on welfare, the percentages of taxes going towards supporting them, and the numbers for generational welfare families(kids born on welfare, rasiing kids on welfare) I think they’ll show this to be much ado about almost nothing. I guarantee we’ve spent more tax money on much less noble endeavors than we do on supporting the populations targeted by the OP(large welfare families). [/QUOTE] Budget for [TANF](http://www.acf.hhs.gov/opa/fact_sheets/tanf_factsheet.html): $16.5 Billion (coincidentally the same as NASA’s budget) 2006 [Food Stamps](http://www.fns.usda.gov/pd/fssummar.htm): $33 Billion Medicaid (federal portion only) $180 Billion So you’re at almost $230 billion just off the bat. Now, the majority of the recipients are probably quite worthy. Let’s assume that only 10% are there for having kids they can’t support or similarly poor life choices or avoidable problems. That’s $23 billion in public money- far more than NASA receives, and that’s just assuming 10% is avoidable. The greatest cost isn’t just tax outlay, though. With unsupportable children comes poverty comes crime comes poorer schools comes unsafe areas comes declining property values etc. etc. etc.. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2007, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/having-large-families-when-you-cant-afford-them/394248/96 "2007-03-02T21:35:20Z")
[QUOTE=Sattua] As a woman, I do get irritated that the onus of birth control always falls on us. [/QUOTE] Are you saying you don’t like onal sex? ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2007, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/having-large-families-when-you-cant-afford-them/394248/97 "2007-03-02T21:37:33Z")
[QUOTE=Sampiro] The greatest cost isn’t just tax outlay, though. With unsupportable children comes poverty comes crime comes poorer schools comes unsafe areas comes declining property values etc. etc. etc.. [/QUOTE] That’s just it…it’s not just about the taxpayer, it’s about the individuals who are on welfare. Living on welfare is crappy, and taking steps to help people get off of it, whether by limiting benefits for additional children, requiring job training, or whatever, is helping the individual first, which _eventually_ helps society. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2007, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/having-large-families-when-you-cant-afford-them/394248/98 "2007-03-02T21:40:27Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] That’s just it…it’s not just about the taxpayer, it’s about the individuals who are on welfare. Living on welfare is crappy, and taking steps to help people get off of it, whether by limiting benefits for additional children, requiring job training, or whatever, is helping the individual first, which _eventually_ helps society. [/QUOTE] Sure, but you have to keep in mind that to some people (not me) the way to “help people get off of it” is to eliminate “it” and letting them pull themselves up by their bootstraps, work hard, and become billionaire industrialists. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Renob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8c91f0/32.png) [@Renob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renob)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2007, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/having-large-families-when-you-cant-afford-them/394248/99 "2007-03-02T21:44:15Z")
[QUOTE=Merijeek] Sure, but you have to keep in mind that to some people (not me) the way to “help people get off of it” is to eliminate “it” and letting them pull themselves up by their bootstraps, work hard, and become billionaire industrialists. [/QUOTE] What’s the alternative? To let people stay on it and sit around, collecting checks while popping out baby after baby? Of course not everyone can work hard, and I doubt any will become billionaires. However, if people do not have the option of sucking at the taxpayer teet, then perhaps they’ll have some incentive to try and better their situation. I’m fine with public benefits existing, but it should be a rough existence that gives one an incentive to get off as quickly as possible. Forcing people to jump through a variety of hoops to get TANF, Medicaid, SCHIP, etc., and imposing uncomfortable conditions on them when they are on it will ensure that the programs are there for those who truly need it, but that they have an incentive to become self-sufficient quickly. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2007, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/having-large-families-when-you-cant-afford-them/394248/100 "2007-03-02T21:53:25Z")
One short quote and one literary excerpt as an Intermission: > [@](#): > > “Ignorance breeds poverty, not the other way around.” **Malcolm X** > [@](#): > > **A CHRISTMAS CAROL** > > From the foldings of its robe, it brought two children; > wretched, abject, frightful, hideous, miserable. They knelt > down at its feet, and clung upon the outside of its garment. > > ‘Oh, Man. look here. Look, look, down here.’ exclaimed the Ghost. > > They were a boy and a girl. Yellow, meagre, ragged, scowling, > wolfish; but prostrate, too, in their humility. Where > graceful youth should have filled their features out, and > touched them with its freshest tints, a stale and shrivelled > hand, like that of age, had pinched, and twisted them, and > pulled them into shreds. Where angels might have sat > enthroned, devils lurked, and glared out menacing. No > change, no degradation, no perversion of humanity, in any > grade, through all the mysteries of wonderful creation, has > monsters half so horrible and dread. > > Scrooge started back, appalled. Having them shown to him > in this way, he tried to say they were fine children, but > the words choked themselves, rather than be parties to a lie > of such enormous magnitude. > > ‘Spirit. are they yours.’ Scrooge could say no more. > > ‘They are Man’s,’ said the Spirit, looking down upon > them. ‘And they cling to me, appealing from their fathers. > This boy is Ignorance. This girl is Want. Beware them both, > and all of their degree, but most of all beware this boy, > for on his brow I see that written which is Doom, unless the > writing be erased. Deny it.’ cried the Spirit, stretching out > its hand towards the city. ‘Slander those who tell it ye. > Admit it for your factious purposes, and make it worse. > And abide the end.’ > > ‘Have they no refuge or resource.’ cried Scrooge. > > ‘Are there no prisons.’ said the Spirit, turning on him > for the last time with his own words. ‘Are there no workhouses.’" Discuss amongst yourselves. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/having-large-families-when-you-cant-afford-them/394248.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/having-large-families-when-you-cant-afford-them/394248.md?page=6)