# Hawaiian Independence, convince me **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 29, 2005, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hawaiian-independence-convince-me/314700 "2005-07-29T03:48:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2005, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hawaiian-independence-convince-me/314700/1 "2005-07-29T03:48:04Z")
OK. I will not argue. I will not scream. I want to learn. Somebody put the best face possible on the idea of Hawaiian Independence. I honestly do not see how any serious person can support this idea. Let me outline my objections. I will do this once, since I will not argue. 1. Hawaii was an independent country and was annex by a bunch of White foreigners who petitioned Congress for Statehood. Statehood was illegal. OK, but it was done a long time ago. I see no way to restore the previous situation that would be fair to modern Hawaiians. (Sorry, sir, your condo now belongs to the native people, climb in the helicopter.) 2. All discussions of Hawaiian independence seen to focus around race. Race-based arguments are creepy. So please, explain to me. Try to convince me. ---
**Author:** ![ParentalAdvisory](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/53a042/32.png) [@ParentalAdvisory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParentalAdvisory)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2005, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hawaiian-independence-convince-me/314700/2 "2005-07-29T04:05:47Z")
Oh I don’t know, do you know about much it would cost to re-sew all our flags? I don’t think it will happen. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2005, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hawaiian-independence-convince-me/314700/3 "2005-07-29T04:19:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Hawaii was an independent country and was annex by a bunch of White foreigners who petitioned Congress for Statehood. Statehood was illegal. OK, but it was done a long time ago. I see no way to restore the previous situation that would be fair to modern Hawaiians. (Sorry, sir, your condo now belongs to the native people, climb in the helicopter.) True enough. But it happened 107 years ago, so I’m going to assume that everybody living in Hawaii now was born an American. So how do you decide who’s a native and who isn’t? There doesn’t seem much point in declaring independence if they’re just going to have to give the new country over to people like Nicole Kidman, Bette Midler, Michelle Wie, and Ron Darling. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2005, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hawaiian-independence-convince-me/314700/4 "2005-07-29T04:29:35Z")
I don’t think it’s entirely accurate to say that it was a bunch of foreigners who so petitioned. After all, weren’t those individuals made citizens of the Hawaiian kingdom? There is another option, if both governments were to agree: Commonwealth or Free Association status. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2005, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hawaiian-independence-convince-me/314700/5 "2005-07-29T05:16:36Z")
> [@Paul in Saudi](#): > > (Sorry, sir, your condo now belongs to the native people, climb in the helicopter.) Well, actually, many condos are stacked up on land that is held in trust for native Hawaiians. The proceeeds from the property go to fund schools that teach both modern education and traditional culture. ---
**Author:** ![Digital\_Stimulus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Digital\_Stimulus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Digital_Stimulus)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2005, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hawaiian-independence-convince-me/314700/6 "2005-07-29T15:06:58Z")
> [@Paul in Saudi](#): > > Somebody put the best face possible on the idea of Hawaiian Independence. I honestly do not see how any serious person can support this idea. I lived in Hawaii for six years; moved there on a whim, knowing nothing about the place. After a couple years there, I accepted the fact that I’ll always be a _haole_ (in the non-derogatory sense of the word) – the values and culture are just too dissimilar to my NJ upbringing. I can’t really make a case for Hawaiian Independence, for I have what I believe to be the same stumbling blocks as you – practicality, feasibility, and fairness to those who had nothing to do with the historical injustices, but are now living there. At the same time, I recognize (now; I had no idea there was even an issue before I moved there) just how badly the Hawaiian people got screwed by the missionaries/capitalists. And it carries on to today; look into the OHA (mis)management and/or the housing situation of native Hawaiians. I should add a disclaimer that I have only cursory knowledge of Hawaiian history, picked up from the time I lived there. IOW, someone more knowledgable than I should feel free to correct or fill in any misstatements I make. > [@](#): > > 1. Hawaii was an independent country and was annex by a bunch of White foreigners who petitioned Congress for Statehood. Statehood was illegal. OK, but it was done a long time ago. I see no way to restore the previous situation that would be fair to modern Hawaiians. (Sorry, sir, your condo now belongs to the native people, climb in the helicopter.) Yes, this is where I can’t see any real remedy. > [@](#): > > 1. All discussions of Hawaiian independence seen to focus around race. Race-based arguments are creepy. While many arguments have this flavor, I’m not so sure it’s wrong in this case. It’s not as if Hawaii was a “melting pot” at the time; I believe that all the native people actually _were_ Hawaiian. The Japanese, Portugese, and other races immigrated to work/own the plantations. There was a clear dividing line here; of course, it has been subsequently muddied over the course of time. IIRC, at the time I left, blood quanta was being used to determine heritage; a person had to be able to prove they were at least 1/16th native Hawaiian (i.e., one of their great-great-grandparents had to be pure-blood Hawaiian) to be able to claim native rights. When I moved from Hawaii, it wasn’t working out too well. There were exactly your charges of racism being made. I don’t know what the resolution was, if there was one. From what I remember, the legal case for soveriegnty is ambiguous. There are international cases that serve as precedents for various positions, including (from US law) native Americans, Alaskans, and (from international law) a variety of south Pacific peoples. I no longer have references and what I did have are most likely out of date anyway. In a quick glance at related websites, the [Hawaiian Independence Blog](http://www.hawaiiankingdom.info/) seems to be a decent source of information. My final feeling on this, in case it wasn’t clear, is that the Hawaiians have a legitimate position. The overthrow was indeed illegal and immoral. If the logistics of returning sovereignty could be worked out, it would be the proper course of action. Unfortunately, I don’t see how they could be worked out, even if the US government were to make the attempt. And, since I don’t see that last ever happening, the first necessary step in the process is a show-stopper. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2005, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hawaiian-independence-convince-me/314700/7 "2005-07-29T17:24:55Z")
However, first of all, you’d have to have a majority of the citizens WANT independence. They don’t. Next- although there can be arguments that the Annexation was ‘forced’, the Hawaiians _asked_ for Statehood. For well over a century, it’s been “once you are a State- you can’t leave on your own.” Then again, it would set a dangerous precedent- most of the USA could be claimed by the Native Americans. Face it- nearly any hunk of land has changed ownership several times by force. How do you decide who is the 'real" owner? If we found a person in Eurpoe that was descended from the Neanderthal, would we have to cede all of Europe to him? :rolleyes: If we take this to the ridiculous extreme- just about every human on earth would only be able to live in a small tribal area in Africa. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2005, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hawaiian-independence-convince-me/314700/8 "2005-07-29T17:27:11Z")
(I am reading all this. I promised not to argue and so I am not. Still, I wanted you to know I am following the thread and hope a pro-independence person will be along.) ---
**Author:** ![Digital\_Stimulus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Digital\_Stimulus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Digital_Stimulus)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2005, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hawaiian-independence-convince-me/314700/9 "2005-07-29T20:39:24Z")
Again, I have to disclaim that I’m not a good representative of the pro-Hawaiian sovereignty movement. At the same time, there are obvious rebuttals to some points: > [@DrDeth](#): > > However, first of all, you’d have to have a majority of the citizens WANT independence. They don’t. > > Next- although there can be arguments that the Annexation was ‘forced’, the Hawaiians _asked_ for Statehood. For well over a century, it’s been “once you are a State- you can’t leave on your own.” I don’t think there’s actually _any_ argument that the overthrow was _not_ illegal. If you look into it, I’d be interested as to what justification you might use to say that it wasn’t. At any rate, for the most part, the powers that be just ignore it. IIRC, the closest the Hawaiians got to an actual acknowledgment of impropriety was an apology by then-President Clinton (1996?). I no longer remember the extent or wording; it should be easy enough to find via google. I believe you are correct that the majority of citizens do not want Hawaiian independence. So long as you qualify that with “now”. Is that legitimate (at least theoretically)? I don’t think so; if the whole basis for citizenship is based on an illegality, how can it be? It’s akin to (the obviously ridiculous example) of having all H1B visa holders in the US settle exclusively in Wyoming for 10 years, vote _en masse_ for their chosen candidate for governor, and calling it legitimate. But the passage of time encroaches on the practical aspects of disentangling the situation that keeps me from thinking there can ever be a return of sovereignty. > [@](#): > > Then again, it would set a dangerous precedent- most of the USA could be claimed by the Native Americans. Yes, but it’s not necessarily an all or nothing deal. I believe some Native Americans have successfully gotten land back. One option might be to give back _some_ land. And, I believe that pro-sovereignty activists are using some of the legal decisions in favor of Native Americans to bolster their case. > [@](#): > > Face it- nearly any hunk of land has changed ownership several times by force. How do you decide who is the 'real" owner? If we found a person in Eurpoe that was descended from the Neanderthal, would we have to cede all of Europe to him? :rolleyes: > > If we take this to the ridiculous extreme- just about every human on earth would only be able to live in a small tribal area in Africa. :dubious: Yes, I agree. There’s no rolling back time. However, the point about Neanderthals is a red herring. There is a clear point in recent history we can point to where we know who the “real” owners of Hawaii were. This itself raises a host of problems however; one issue with the blood quanta I mentioned previously is that there are few records of Hawaiian natives from that time. How does one prove one’s great-great-grandfather lived in a particular place at a particular time without records? (A rather neat beaureucratic trick used, if I recall, to deny Jews in Europe their pre-WWII belongings after they survived the concentration camps.) I’m not sure what the exact parallels are, but I’d think there are some to be made with land issues concerning the formation of Israel. As I referred to above, what about the Aleuts? Palestinians? South Africans? The Maori? But I can only suggest these as possible debate fodder and not argue it myself, as all of this is far beyond my level of knowledge. What I can say (and to some extent already have) is that, in my opinion, the Hawaiian people got screwed, and all in the interests of Christian zealotry and capitalist greed (which weren’t very clearly separate at the time). And it’s a great injustice that’s been done, even though I don’t see a practical means of rectifying it. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2005, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hawaiian-independence-convince-me/314700/10 "2005-07-29T20:59:59Z")
Why not just leave peaceful honest people free to pursue their own happiness in their own way? “Imagine there’s no countries. It’s easy if you try.” — John Lennon ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2005, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hawaiian-independence-convince-me/314700/11 "2005-07-29T21:15:25Z")
Nice, simplistic idea, Lib, but what if the pot has been broken and glued back together multiple times? To which state do we restore it? Which “peaceful honest people” do we “leave … free to pursue their own happiness in their own way,” the people whose ancestors had their land stolen or the people who, generations later, bought that land in good faith? ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2005, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hawaiian-independence-convince-me/314700/12 "2005-07-29T21:33:45Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Why not just leave peaceful honest people free to pursue their own happiness in their own way? > > “Imagine there’s no countries. It’s easy if you try.” — John Lennon Sounds good to me. But where have there ever been peaceful honest people? ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2005, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hawaiian-independence-convince-me/314700/13 "2005-07-29T21:50:13Z")
Gosh, I don’t think it’s at all difficult to construct an argument that Hawaii should regain independence. So long as (1) a majority (or perhaps, a supermajority) of the people who live there want independence, and (2) Congress and the President approve the state’s withdrawal from the union, and (3) independence is not being sought or used for the purpose of trampling on minority rights, then I see no reason why Hawaii should not seek and obtain its independence. It’s not like there aren’t already plenty of island nation-states out there in the Pacific. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2005, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hawaiian-independence-convince-me/314700/14 "2005-07-29T21:55:12Z")
> [@Digital Stimulus](#): > > I don’t think there’s actually _any_ argument that the overthrow was _not_ illegal. > > I believe you are correct that the majority of citizens do not want Hawaiian independence. So long as you qualify that with “now”. Is that legitimate (at least theoretically)? I don’t think so; if the whole basis for citizenship is based on an illegality, how can it be? > > Yes, but it’s not necessarily an all or nothing deal. I believe some Native Americans have successfully gotten land back. One option might be to give back _some_ land. And, I believe that pro-sovereignty activists are using some of the legal decisions in favor of Native Americans to bolster their case. > > Yes, I agree. There’s no rolling back time. However, the point about Neanderthals is a red herring. There is a clear point in recent history we can point to where we know who the “real” owners of Hawaii were. . So then- CITE? Under what body of law was it illegal? Who decided it was illegal? Who was arrested for the illegal act? Even if we limited to those who are “natural born citizens’- that is to say- born in the Islands- you wouldn’t be able to get even close to a majority. If they are born there, they are legal citizens. The Kingdom of Hawaii allowed people to immigrate did they not? Thus, the fact that someone is not 'pure blood” doesn’t mean they are a citizen due to an illegal act. Also- AFAIK, there are no 'pure blooded" natives of Hawaii anymore. Thus- \*everyone \*is descended from an “illegal”. Thus, by you reasoning- no one has the right to be there. Every bit of America “belonged” to some Inidan tribe at one time, and nigh every one can claim that the "white man’ and/or the US governemtn used force or coercion to “steal” the land. The point about neanderthals isn’t a red herring. The principle here seemt to be that the first residents of a land have claim on that land forever. The Cro-magon “took” Europe from the Neanderthal and likely by force, and certainly not be “legal agreement”. Thus, if the “natives” (defined as those who got there 1st) of Hawaii get to claim ‘their’ land back, the “natives” of Europe (the neanderthal) get Europe. :rolleyes: Besides- unless i am wrong- most of the “natives” of Hawaii can’t be descended from the very first boatload, and in fact AFAIK there seemed to be constant ‘warfare" between various tribes and "kingdoms’ until 1795. In other words, the territory changed hands back and forth for some 1000 years or so. So- which group of Hawaiins are the 'true" natives? What I am trying to say is that there is no “uncontested” ownership of any land. Although some Amricans may have forced a King of Hawaii to give away some soverinity, before then, the various groups of natives fought over that same land. In any case- you have not refuted my point that the citizens of Hawaii voluntarily petitioned for Statehood some 50 years ago- they _asked_ to join the USA. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2005, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hawaiian-independence-convince-me/314700/15 "2005-07-29T22:01:20Z")
No Hawaiian Dopers in this thread yet . . . hmmm . . . FWIW, the Senate is debating a bill to grant native Hawaiians (i.e., not persons born in Hawaii but persons descended from indigenous pre-colonial Hawaiians) the same “sovereignty” now enjoyed by Indian nations and Inuits: [http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/paperchase/2005/07/senate-debate-on-hawaii-native.php](http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/paperchase/2005/07/senate-debate-on-hawaii-native.php) This would require the creation of a single political entity, analogous to the Indian tribal governments, to represent the natives. There are several Hawaiian independence organizations: Free Hawaii – [http://www.freehawaii.org/](http://www.freehawaii.org/) Kingdom of Hawai’i – [http://www.pixi.com/~kingdom/](http://www.pixi.com/~kingdom/) Nation of Hawai’i – [http://www.hawaii-nation.org/](http://www.hawaii-nation.org/) Sovereign Hawaiian Government – [http://www.sovereignhawaii.com/index.htm](http://www.sovereignhawaii.com/index.htm) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2005, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hawaiian-independence-convince-me/314700/16 "2005-07-29T22:03:13Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > In any case- you have not refuted my point that the citizens of Hawaii voluntarily petitioned for Statehood some 50 years ago- they _asked_ to join the USA. Yes – as an option preferable to territorial status, not as an option preferable to independence, which was not open for discussion. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2005, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hawaiian-independence-convince-me/314700/17 "2005-07-29T22:05:50Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > There is another option, if both governments were to agree: Commonwealth or Free Association status. Which is what Puerto Rico has got, and they’re always fighting over whether the next step should be independence or statehood. See this thread: “Let’s debate the future of Puerto Rico” – [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=315660](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=315660) ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2005, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hawaiian-independence-convince-me/314700/18 "2005-07-29T22:06:01Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > Sounds good to me. But where have there ever been peaceful honest people? There was one, once. But he was beaten to death by an unruly mob of people demonstrating about the Single Transferable Vote system. Such are the vagaries of democracy. This sort of thing wouldn’t happen in a totalitarian police state. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2005, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hawaiian-independence-convince-me/314700/19 "2005-07-29T22:09:09Z")
In any case, the “natives” are not that numerous compared to other ethnic groups in Hawaii. From [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawaii#Demographics:](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawaii#Demographics:) > [@](#): > > Hawaii was the first majority-minority state in the United States since the early twentieth century. According to the 2000 Census, 6.6% of Hawaii’s population identified themselves as Native Hawaiian, 24.3% were White or Caucasian, including Portuguese and 41.6% were Asian, including 0.1% Asian Indian, 4.7% Chinese, 14.1% Filipino, 16.7% Japanese, 1.9% Korean and 0.6% Vietnamese. 1.3% were other Pacific Islander which includes Tongan, Tahitian, Maori and Micronesian, and 21.4% described themselves as mixed (two or more races/ethnic groups). 1.8% were Black or African American and 0.3% were American Indian and Alaska Native. ---
**Author:** ![Digital\_Stimulus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Digital\_Stimulus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Digital_Stimulus)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2005, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hawaiian-independence-convince-me/314700/20 "2005-07-29T23:01:51Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > So then- CITE? Under what body of law was it illegal? Who decided it was illegal? Who was arrested for the illegal act? Here ya go: [The Apology Resolution](http://www.hawaii-nation.org/publawsum.html). First link googling “clinton apology hawaii”. It just wasn’t that hard to find. Concerning illegality, see the excerpt from Grover Cleveland below. I have to say, you seem to be espousing a “might makes right” philosophy; are you really proposing “who was arrested” as a metric of illegality? > [@](#): > > In any case- you have not refuted my point that the citizens of Hawaii voluntarily petitioned for Statehood some 50 years ago- they _asked_ to join the USA. Nor did I intend to; my only intention was to provide what little knowledge I have of the situation to promote the debate. As to the rest, as I have said multiple times, I don’t think it’s feasible to grant full Hawaiian sovereignty. You’ll not be getting an argument from me about it, for I’m not able to argue it on practical grounds and have not the knowledge for a legal argument. That doesn’t mean I can’t admit that a wrong has been done and wish I could see a means of rectifying it. For those who are interested, this comes from an address made by then-President Grover Cleveland (linked to from the above link): > [@Grover Cleveland](#): > > As I apprehend the situation, we are brought face to face with the following conditions: > > The lawful Government of Hawaii was overthrown without the drawing of a sword or the firing of a shot by a process every step of which, it may be safely asserted, is directly traceable to and dependent for its success upon the agency of the United States acting through its diplomatic and naval representatives. > > But for the notorious predilections of the United States Minister for annexation, the Committee of Safety, which should be called the Committee of Annexation, would never have existed. > > But for the landing of the United States forces upon false pretexts respecting the danger to life and property the committee would never have exposed themselves to the pains and penalties of treason by undertaking the subversion of the Queen’s Government. > > But for the presence of the United States forces in the immediate vicinity and in position to afford all needed protection and support the committee would not have proclaimed the provisional government from the steps of the Government building. > > And finally, but for the lawless occupation of Honolulu under false pretexts by the United States forces, and but for Minister Stevens’ recognition of the provisional government when the United States forces were its sole support and constituted its only military strength, the Queen and her Government would never have yielded to the provisional government, even for a time and for the sole purpose of submitting her case to the enlightened justice of the United States. > > Believing, therefore, that the United States could not, under the circumstances disclosed, annex the islands without justly incurring the imputation of acquiring them by unjustifiable methods, I shall not again submit the treaty of annexation to the Senate for its consideration, and in the instructions to Minister Willis, a copy of which accompanies this message, I have directed him to so inform the provisional government. > > But in the present instance our duty does not, in my opinion, end with refusing to consummate this questionable transaction. It has been the boast of our government that it seeks to do justice in all things without regard to the strength or weakness of those with whom it deals. I mistake the American people if they favor the odious doctrine that there is no such thing as international morality, that there is one law for a strong nation and another for a weak one, and that even by indirection a strong power may with impunity despoil a weak one of its territory. > > By an act of war, committed with the participation of a diplomatic representative of the United States and without authority of Congress, the Government of a feeble but friendly and confiding people has been overthrown. A substantial wrong has thus been done which a due regard for our national character as well as the rights of the injured people requires we should endeavor to repair. The provisional government has not assumed a republican or other constitutional form, but has remained a mere executive council or oligarchy, set up without the assent of the people. It has not sought to find a permanent basis of popular support and has given no evidence of an intention to do so. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hawaiian-independence-convince-me/314700.md?page=2)