# hawthorne... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 24, 2008, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hawthorne/469391 "2008-10-24T17:32:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2008, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hawthorne/469391/41 "2008-10-24T21:41:47Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > [**finris**](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=484039&highlight=zeitgeist), I mean **Buddha\_Clause** , stand up and take a bow. > > You guys are chumps. Not to ruin your troll-hunt, or anything, but the OP registered in June, and **finris** registered in August. So, he’s either a troll with amazing foresight, or you’re just a little carried away with a witchhunt. ---
**Author:** ![Lobsang](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobsang/32/4067_2.png) [@Lobsang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobsang)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2008, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hawthorne/469391/42 "2008-10-24T21:45:40Z")
And the fact remains that telling someone to fuck off is uncalled for troll or no troll. The correct thing to do is report it and maybe post “reported” in the thread. ---
**Author:** ![Junior\_Spaceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Junior\_Spaceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Junior_Spaceman)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2008, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hawthorne/469391/43 "2008-10-24T21:47:52Z")
B\_C can clearly fuck off as a spamming troll. I’ve seen the same structure of his opening post several times, and it always has exactly the same form: Start by saying “wow, these people must be idiots for thinking this crazy thing is true”, try to argue against them, find out that you really don’t know what you thought was true, then be led by your “crazy” friends out of the darkness, and into the light of knowledge. Creationists often use this exact line of discussion (“Teach the controversy!”) And he can especially fuck off for quoting me in exactly the opposite way that my statement was intended. I do NOT mean that there is no good evidence to dispute what Holocaust deniers are saying. I meant that there are MOUNTAINS of evidence to dispute their crap, but it is dangerous to enter an argument with a denier, when the only facts at your disposal are emotional stories of what your grandfather told you. As for the general conspiracy theories that he and his pet movie are pushing … take them or leave them, but don’t be suckered by lame viral marketing. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2008, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hawthorne/469391/44 "2008-10-24T21:51:42Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Not to ruin your troll-hunt, or anything, but the OP registered in June, and **finris** registered in August. So, he’s either a troll with amazing foresight, or you’re just a little carried away with a witchhunt. Chump. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2008, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hawthorne/469391/45 "2008-10-24T21:54:30Z")
I don’t care. I still want to see _Zeitgeist_; I love conspiracy theories. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2008, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hawthorne/469391/46 "2008-10-24T22:13:18Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > I don’t care. I still want to see _Zeitgeist_; I love conspiracy theories. It’s interesting, at least. ---
**Author:** ![runcible\_spoon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9fc29f/32.png) [@runcible\_spoon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/runcible_spoon)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2008, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hawthorne/469391/47 "2008-10-24T22:46:04Z")
> [@Junior\_Spaceman](#): > > B\_C can clearly fuck off as a spamming troll. I’ve seen the same structure of his opening post several times, and it always has exactly the same form: Start by saying “wow, these people must be idiots for thinking this crazy thing is true”, try to argue against them, find out that you really don’t know what you thought was true, then be led by your “crazy” friends out of the darkness, and into the light of knowledge. Creationists often use this exact line of discussion (“Teach the controversy!”) > > And he can especially fuck off for quoting me in exactly the opposite way that my statement was intended. I do NOT mean that there is no good evidence to dispute what Holocaust deniers are saying. I meant that there are MOUNTAINS of evidence to dispute their crap, but it is dangerous to enter an argument with a denier, when the only facts at your disposal are emotional stories of what your grandfather told you. > > As for the general conspiracy theories that he and his pet movie are pushing … take them or leave them, but don’t be suckered by lame viral marketing. Uh… correct me if I’m wrong here, but that does seem to be what he was saying. Or, rather, a closely allied point - that the conspiracy theorists have spent way more time thinking about this and coming up with ‘facts’ and cites (bogus or not) than you have, and it’s hard to pull together a brilliant, convincing argument about something you haven’t really thought about much. And if this was viral marketing, it was the worst damn viral marketing I’ve ever seen. ---
**Author:** ![Junior\_Spaceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Junior\_Spaceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Junior_Spaceman)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2008, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hawthorne/469391/48 "2008-10-24T23:11:23Z")
Runcible Spoon, that would be true if he was not being entirely disingenuous and deceitful in his post. Let me give an example of how his post might read if it was written by a creationist, with a similar, deceptive purpose. Bolding to point out the real point of the post. NOTE: I AM NOT CLAIMING THIS WAS POSTED BY ANYONE - THIS IS A HYPOTHETICAL > [@](#): > > ‘Expelled’ is trying to ruin friendships > > So I have been a lurker on these boards for quite a long time and I have recently had the enjoyment of reading about the giant hoax that is the holocaust and the bullshit that was being thrown around gave me flashbacks to some heated arguments I have had with a couple of friends that seriously endangered our friendships. > > It all started about six months ago when one friend told me I should see this movie called ‘Expelled’ and that it will blow my mind and disprove everything I thought to be true in my entire life. This particular friend has a knack for hyperbole so I threw the statement to the side and didn’t bother. Within the week I had another friend tell me about this life changing movie that everyone should see because it will change your entire view on life. **Now I am a little curious, TWO claims of a life changing experiences in a WEEK? Maybe I should read a little bit about this movie…** > > Well I did some elementary research (wikipedia) and found out that it’s basically a movie that supposedly reveals the truth about intelligent design. Although I have major issues with religion, the part that came close to destroying my faith in people was the part that tried to prove that every one of my teachers at school, and friends who had studied science, had lied to me about evolution, and that they had pictures to prove it. > > What? This was what was creating the life changing experience with my friends? That can’t be.. Well they aren’t the brightest bunch so maybe a little discussion will set them in order and in having this discussion I will have successfully fought ignorance and made the world a bit of a better place. So I went to them and talked to them about it, get a feel for how much they took out of this idea of Intelligent Design, because who knows? maybe in the heat of the moment they bought what the movie was selling but upon further review realized the error of their ways.. If only this were the case. > > So upon my questioning they **proceed to throw these seemingly indisputable facts at me** , basically regurgitating the movie at me and I realized I had nothing to refute these claims. **It was a verbal massacre.** I KNOW what they are saying is false but I didn’t know how to undeniably disprove their claims. I had this same feeling upon reading the holocaust thread. Junior Spaceman put it my situation quite well in the holocaust sister pit thread. > > So I may have lost that round, but I refused to lose the war. I attempted to arm myself with a wealth of knowledge, my primary source being this website that seemed that it would be able to do the trick. So I went back into the battle arena with some new weapons, but it did not turn out as I had expected. They had smoking guns, IRREFUTABLE EVIDENCE. They had well rehearsed, bullet point style arguments. I had a counter website that looked great on paper but in practice was extremely hard to utilize. The sources I came out with were under great scrutiny and it was seemingly impossible to prove my side beyond a shadow of a doubt. > > **(A little of an aside but as I went through that website it actually disappointed me a bit. After reading a lot of the site I decided to humor myself and check one of the sources link and it turned out to be a broken link.. Ok that seems reasonable there a lot of sources cited throughout the website so one broken link seems reasonable. So I decide to check another and it turns out to be some geocities style website. Not quite the irrefutable source I hoped for. Check a third cite, wikipedia. I trust much of what wikipedia says but that would be eaten up if I tried to throw wikipedia in the mix it’s so easy to argue the legitimacy of wikipedia and throwing that in the mix would have spawned a whole new debate altogether. It started feeling less and less like my smoking gun after all these incidents.)** > > So after a few more rounds I gave up trying to show them the error of their ways, it felt like a futile effort on my part and our discussions got pretty viscious near the end and in both sides frustration insults were thrown about and nobody was winning so we both sort of silently called off the debate. It was not fun but I feel like I failed in fighting ignorance, I failed Cecil, and what’s worse is I feel this disease spreading across the globe where **more and more people seem to have seen this movie and have had their lives changed or minds blown and ignorance is spreading**. More and more friends have seen it and I try to poke around and find the ones that are a little more cynical about it and show them the light but they are few and far between. > > So with all this said I pit ignorance and that damn Expelled movie that almost destroyed my friendships and is still a bit of a white elephant in the room when we are hanging out. I also am looking to reach out and find any others who may have had similar issues and feel as though they are fighting what seems to be a futile fight and let them know they are not alone. Aside from the issue and changing the title of the movie, I haven’t changed anything substantial. Can you really read that and not see it as a phony strarman invention of a person who is valiantly fighting against this awesomely powerful movie (that is “blow(ing) minds” and changing lives!!!), and can’t even find a decent website to counter it. Or do people not read anymore? ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2008, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hawthorne/469391/49 "2008-10-24T23:15:41Z")
Fuck! Now I want to see \*Expelled \*too! ---
**Author:** ![Buddha\_Clause](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/439d5e/32.png) [@Buddha\_Clause](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buddha_Clause)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2008, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hawthorne/469391/50 "2008-10-24T23:29:18Z")
> [@Junior\_Spaceman](#): > > B\_C can clearly fuck off as a spamming troll. I’ve seen the same structure of his opening post several times, and it always has exactly the same form: Start by saying “wow, these people must be idiots for thinking this crazy thing is true”, try to argue against them, find out that you really don’t know what you thought was true, then be led by your “crazy” friends out of the darkness, and into the light of knowledge. Creationists often use this exact line of discussion (“Teach the controversy!”) > > And he can especially fuck off for quoting me in exactly the opposite way that my statement was intended. I do NOT mean that there is no good evidence to dispute what Holocaust deniers are saying. I meant that there are MOUNTAINS of evidence to dispute their crap, but it is dangerous to enter an argument with a denier, when the only facts at your disposal are emotional stories of what your grandfather told you. > > As for the general conspiracy theories that he and his pet movie are pushing … take them or leave them, but don’t be suckered by lame viral marketing. Would you believe me if I told you I in no way believe anything that this movie is trying to say? Or do you know me better then me? I don’t feel as though I was using your quote in the opposite of your intentions. Basically, and please correct me if I am in any way misinterpreting what you said, what I took from your post was that you need to know a lot of the facts. I didn’t know a lot of the facts, I knew the movie was wrong. Just as in the same way many people know the holocaust denier was wrong but when faced with all the “evidence” (which I know is bullshit) they can’t quite refute it and they might give them the inches (Like when you said someone might let the conspiracy theorist get away with the statement that gas wasn’t used when there is mountains of evidence against this statement.) In the end I quoted your post because I really connected with your statements. Sadly, I was the person you had described that felt like I needed to say something but didn’t arm myself with the proper knowledge so I ended up losing the battle against their “facts”. ---
**Author:** ![Junior\_Spaceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Junior\_Spaceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Junior_Spaceman)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2008, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hawthorne/469391/51 "2008-10-24T23:39:44Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > Fuck! Now I want to see \*Expelled \*too! 😃 > [@Buddha\_Clause](#): > > Would you believe me if I told you I in no way believe anything that this movie is trying to say? Or do you know me better then me? Actually, I don’t feel like I know you at all. ---
**Author:** ![Buddha\_Clause](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/439d5e/32.png) [@Buddha\_Clause](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buddha_Clause)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2008, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hawthorne/469391/52 "2008-10-24T23:51:34Z")
> [@Junior\_Spaceman](#): > > Can you really read that and not see it as a phony strarman invention of a person who is valiantly fighting against this awesomely powerful movie (that is “blow(ing) minds” and changing lives!!!), and can’t even find a decent website to counter it. Or do people not read anymore? According to me, the website I cited had great information and was, in my eyes, a pretty definitive debunking of the entire movie. What I was trying to say was even this information that I took as great evidence was so easily thrown to the side by my friends for the mere fact that some of the cites were wikipedia links. They see that it’s from wikipedia and they close their eyes and scream “LALALA” even if the wikipedia sites cite other websites they grasp onto the idea that it’s all bullshit because this is the easy way out of what I claim. I guess you could take my OP as pitting my ignorant friends who grasp onto idiotic conspiracy theories and take them as the truth that the government doesn’t want you to know about. ---
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2008, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hawthorne/469391/53 "2008-10-24T23:54:34Z")
> [@Buddha\_Clause](#): > > I guess you could take my OP as pitting my ignorant friends who grasp onto idiotic conspiracy theories and take them as the truth that the government doesn’t want you to know about. The government doesn’t want us to know that you have idiot friends. I’m sure the men in black will be round for you momentarily. ---
**Author:** ![Buddha\_Clause](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/439d5e/32.png) [@Buddha\_Clause](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buddha_Clause)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2008, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hawthorne/469391/54 "2008-10-25T00:06:16Z")
> [@runcible\_spoon](#): > > Uh… correct me if I’m wrong here, but that does seem to be what he was saying. Or, rather, a closely allied point - that the conspiracy theorists have spent way more time thinking about this and coming up with ‘facts’ and cites (bogus or not) than you have, and it’s hard to pull together a brilliant, convincing argument about something you haven’t really thought about much. > > And if this was viral marketing, it was the worst damn viral marketing I’ve ever seen. This is exactly what I was trying to say. So is there some kind of point system where you get awarded for being the first to spot a troll? because it seems that there are a lot of people who want to pin me as this crazy conspiracy theory nut with these evil genius plans of getting everybody to believe 9/11 was a hoax by condemning the movie that states these claims of a 9/11 hoax. You guys are seriously trying to outsmart yourselves. ---
**Author:** ![Junior\_Spaceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Junior\_Spaceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Junior_Spaceman)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2008, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hawthorne/469391/55 "2008-10-25T00:08:01Z")
I guess my mind was just blown by the movie! ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2008, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hawthorne/469391/56 "2008-10-25T00:12:32Z")
…Changed my life, man. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2008, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hawthorne/469391/57 "2008-10-25T00:55:23Z")
> [@Buddha\_Clause](#): > > This is exactly what I was trying to say. > So is there some kind of point system where you get awarded for being the first to spot a troll? because it seems that there are a lot of people who want to pin me as this crazy conspiracy theory nut with these evil genius plans of getting everybody to believe 9/11 was a hoax by condemning the movie that states these claims of a 9/11 hoax. You guys are seriously trying to outsmart yourselves. Sad, just sad. You ‘joined’ for free in June and your first OP wasn’t **Are perogies really Russian?** it was **Theres this movie that was so incredibly life altering it destroyed my friendships**. Your goal is to talk about this movie, it hasn’t worked in the past, you are trying again, you are sad, but worse are the chumps buying it. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2008, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hawthorne/469391/58 "2008-10-25T00:55:38Z")
It was better than _Cats_! ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2008, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hawthorne/469391/59 "2008-10-25T01:21:00Z")
Yeah, if **Jack Batty** doesn’t spell s. o. c. k. I don’t know what does. ---
**Author:** ![ToeJam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dfb087/32.png) [@ToeJam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ToeJam)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2008, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hawthorne/469391/60 "2008-10-25T03:27:07Z")
see. I think the solution is you just stick around and talk about other normal stuff for a good 5-10 months. And ignore this movie. And then I think people will be cool with you. I am now torn. I took your side initially, and still feel you are not a troll. But I would like to learn more about you as a person and your thoughts other than this matter. So we shall see. Perhaps this is the start of something better. As I really do like your user name. We could always use a few more Buddhists out here. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hawthorne/469391.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hawthorne/469391.md?page=4)