# haymarketmartyr, Welcome to the club! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 19, 2009, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haymarketmartyr-welcome-to-the-club/481953 "2009-01-19T06:02:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Vox\_Imperatoris](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Vox\_Imperatoris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vox_Imperatoris)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haymarketmartyr-welcome-to-the-club/481953/1 "2009-01-19T06:02:20Z")
Hey, I’d like to present you with this invitation. (Check out the engraving and the gold-leafed edges.) That’s right; you are now an esteemed member of the group, populated by **Der Trihs** , **RedFury** , et al., of those whom it is best to ignore rather than debate. You may not quite live up to the standards of those masters yet, but you are well on your way. It’s not because I dismissed you out of hand. On the contrary, when I first saw you on these boards, in the Intellectual Property thread, you disagreed with me, but you didn’t seem unreasonable at first (although your [handle](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haymarket_affair) was a clear label of where you stand). But you soon proved your qualifications by showing an almost fanatical opposition to the free market and lack of government regulation. You have an obsession with the idea that Libertarians (and conservatives in general, from what I’ve seen) don’t live in the “real world”, and you react to any argument against you with claims that people are somehow twisting your words around as if they were in (to use your favorite turn of phrase) “Yale sophomore bull session” and are not being making legitimate arguments (which apparently would mean dumbing themselves down to your level). And most of all, you have this amazingly self-righteous idea that everyone has to live their life according to your convoluted understanding of their principles, even if their principles do not require an individual to do this. Gems like this: > [@What is the libertarian plan for political success?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-libertarian-plan-for-political-success/481451/13): > > Regardless if it is called selfishness, self interest or enlightened self-interest, it all pretty much comes down to taking care of yourself and forgetting about the rest of the world. That type of thinking is the opposite of what you need to build a social or political movement. which demonstrates that you possess absolutely no understanding of Libertarian ideas, this: > [@The FDA is Not an Example of Government Success.](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fda-is-not-an-example-of-government-success/481776/54): > > Stupid decisions - drinking - do not justify other stupid decisions. I do not expect perfection in the world, I do not expect consistency, I do not expect all things to be equal. To point out that people drive drunk means nothing to me regarding drugs. Nothing. which demonstrates why you completely fail to comprehend any arguments against your positions. You have this Sophist, skeptic (in the original sense of the word) idea that nothing taken from one source can be applied to anything else, and this: > [@The FDA is Not an Example of Government Success.](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fda-is-not-an-example-of-government-success/481776/61): > > Why is it necessary for you, or other libertarians, to have to rephrase my words, reframe my arguement, change it around, before you can reply to it? > > I live in the real world. I cannot speak for you but that is where I reside. Nothing in it is perfect because of the human condition and human nature. Nothing having to do with the behavior of people is perfect. which demonstrates why you can’t have a legitimate discussion with anyone who doesn’t share your views. People \*have \*to reframe your arguments because they are complete BS, full of strawmen and logical inconsistencies. You have this obsession with the idea that it is impossible to arrive at the ideal of anything. No, all we can do is throw it all away or stick with what we’ve got. Forget trying to come up with a sound ideological basis for our laws, so that we can apply them consistently; that’s “verbal masturbation”. We have to concentrate on the “real world”, the understanding of which is presumably known to you as the received word of God. According to you, the only way to go about making laws is to listen to the mandate of the “people” for our frame of reference and accept the resulting magisterial mandate as the absolute law. (Although you’ll be glad to know that that makes you a Conservative, as our poster \*\*Liberal \*\*will be happy to point out.) And more than anything you’ve said in particular, it’s the general attitude you display. You seem to take absolutely zero content from anyone else’s posts. Debating you is like playing tennis against a wall; anything you send at it is just going to come right back, unchanged, until you get bored and decide to go do something else. While I’m not often completely changed in my way of thinking by other people’s posts, they do often point out holes in my train of thought and help me refine my understanding. Your posts do not do this because your posts are the same broken record playing over and over. I could go on, and I could talk about something besides Libertarianism, but that’s **all you ever talk about**. You’re on some kind of misguided crusade against it, like **Der Trihs** against religion (and he is not nearly as single-minded; he actually has some useful things to say), and there’s nothing left for the opposition to do but ignore you. So I’m just posting this here to vent against you and to serve as advice to others not to bother. Valete, Vox Imperatoris Note: this does not apply to anyone else who happens to disagree with me on Libertarianism or any other political issue. Most of you have been quite reasonable, and you don’t fill your posts with strawmen and logical fallacies. This is just directed against **haymarketmartyr**. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haymarketmartyr-welcome-to-the-club/481953/2 "2009-01-19T06:42:44Z")
> [@Vox\_Imperatoris](#): > > which demonstrates that you possess absolutely no understanding of Libertarian ideas, this: His/her characterization of it as “taking care of yourself and forgetting about the rest of the world” is if anything overly generous towards libertarianism. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haymarketmartyr-welcome-to-the-club/481953/3 "2009-01-19T13:33:35Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > His/her characterization of it as “taking care of yourself and forgetting about the rest of the world” is if anything overly generous towards libertarianism. Except that life is not a zero-sum game. My gain is not necessarily anyone else’s loss. It’s entirely possible to act in your own best interest without fucking everyone else. ---
**Author:** ![haymarketmartyr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/35a633/32.png) [@haymarketmartyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/haymarketmartyr)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haymarketmartyr-welcome-to-the-club/481953/4 "2009-01-19T15:25:43Z")
Vox Why is it that you cannot simply accept that someone has heard your arguements… disgested them… thought about them … and utterly and completely rejects them as worthless? Why is it that you insist on making statements which characterize posts against your position as > [@](#): > > \*\*\*\*you have this amazingly self-righteous idea that everyone has to live their life according to your convoluted understanding of their principles, > > \*\*\* which demonstrates that you possess absolutely no understanding of Libertarian ideas > > \*\*\* which demonstrates why you completely fail to comprehend any arguments against your positions > > \*\*\* And more than anything you’ve said in particular, it’s the general attitude you display\* So to your mind the problem is clear. I do not understand… I apply my narrow principles to others … I do not comprehend… I have a poor attitude… The fault is completely mine. I am in error. I need some kind of reprogramming. I think what you do not like is that I am blunt, straight forward, and direct. You wanna take potshots at me? Its a free country. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haymarketmartyr-welcome-to-the-club/481953/5 "2009-01-19T15:28:27Z")
> [@](#): > > which demonstrates why you completely fail to comprehend any arguments against your positions. You have this Sophist, skeptic (in the original sense of the word) idea that nothing taken from one source can be applied to anything else, and this: I think he understands perfectly the objection. You seek logical consistency in the legal system, whereas **haymarketmartyr** rejects this, as is his right, instead seeking a pragmatic foundation for law. This isn’t wrong, _per se_, it’s just a different outlook on the world, and it’s ironic that a self-described libertarian would start this thread, especially: > [@](#): > > which demonstrates why you can’t have a legitimate discussion with anyone who doesn’t share your views. given the typical tactic of a libertarian is to fall back on moral dangers, natural rights, axiomatic beliefs about free markets etc. when their arguments are challenged. > [@](#): > > I could go on, and I could talk about something besides Libertarianism, but that’s all you ever talk about. You’re on some kind of misguided crusade against it No offence, but who wouldn’t be? Taken to the conclusions that it’s typically taken to on the Internet, libertarianism is a repugnant, abhorrent philosophy. It’s interesting how libertarianism can take a basic set of propositions that everybody accepts as being in some sense good, yet draws them out to a conclusion that adequately describes what most people think of as being Hell-on-Earth. Libertarianism basically calls for the end of society as we know it. Given that, is it really that surprising that people take a strong dislike to libertarianism? ---
**Author:** ![Terrifel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Terrifel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrifel)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haymarketmartyr-welcome-to-the-club/481953/6 "2009-01-19T15:32:00Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > No offence, but who wouldn’t be? Taken to the conclusions that it’s typically taken to on the Internet, libertarianism is a repugnant, abhorrent philosophy. In fairness, isn’t this true of pretty much anything on the Internet? ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haymarketmartyr-welcome-to-the-club/481953/7 "2009-01-19T15:50:34Z")
Not really—one of the few other ideologies I can think of that is taken to the lengths of hardcore libertarianism is communism. Do the majority of people view communism as a joke? Yes. Why be surprised when they do the same with libertarianism, and why be surprised when people react strongly when hardcore libertarianism is mentioned? ---
**Author:** ![haymarketmartyr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/35a633/32.png) [@haymarketmartyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/haymarketmartyr)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haymarketmartyr-welcome-to-the-club/481953/8 "2009-01-19T16:30:55Z")
Vox I do have one question for you based on your post analyzing and dissecting me. You said this regarding the name I have adopted ( > [@](#): > > although your handle was a clear label of where you stand How so? ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haymarketmartyr-welcome-to-the-club/481953/9 "2009-01-19T17:47:43Z")
link to thread please ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haymarketmartyr-welcome-to-the-club/481953/10 "2009-01-19T17:59:59Z")
> [@haymarketmartyr](#): > > How so? I don’t have a dog in this fight, but your handle is clearly a reference to the [early heroes](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haymarket_Riot) of the organized labor struggle. ---
**Author:** ![Idle\_Thoughts](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@Idle\_Thoughts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Idle_Thoughts)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haymarketmartyr-welcome-to-the-club/481953/11 "2009-01-19T18:01:19Z")
Remember, folks. Vox is only 15 years old (or so)…not his fault. He just doesn’t know any better! ---
**Author:** ![haymarketmartyr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/35a633/32.png) [@haymarketmartyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/haymarketmartyr)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haymarketmartyr-welcome-to-the-club/481953/12 "2009-01-19T18:03:38Z")
Pochacco… yes it is. However, there was an active group of anarchists who participated in the events that led up to the Haymarket Massacre. At least two of them - August Spies and Louis Ling - were killed as a result. Others who were tried and hung also had anarchist sympathies if they were not full fledged anarchists. There is a branch of libertariansim which is anarchist in at least part. I was just wondering why Vox would think he could figure out my leanings based on a name which is multifaceted. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haymarketmartyr-welcome-to-the-club/481953/13 "2009-01-19T19:19:28Z")
Pictures are hung; people are hanged. That’s about all I got. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haymarketmartyr-welcome-to-the-club/481953/14 "2009-01-19T19:35:30Z")
> [@haymarketmartyr](#): > > Pochacco… yes it is. > > However, there was an active group of anarchists who participated in the events that led up to the Haymarket Massacre. At least two of them - August Spies and Louis Ling - were killed as a result. Others who were tried and hung also had anarchist sympathies if they were not full fledged anarchists. There is a branch of libertariansim which is anarchist in at least part. I was just wondering why Vox would think he could figure out my leanings based on a name which is multifaceted. The battle is not always to the strong, nor the race to the swift, but that’s the way to bet it? You chose a name for yourself that ties into the Haymarket riots, and links you to the opinions of the people who were martyred there. What other interpretation makes sense? If somebody started posting as WoundedKneeMartyr, we’d expect that person to be pretty vocal about Indian rights and abuses thereof. And, given that he linked to a page about the riots in his original comment, he obviously knew what he was talking about. Why did you feel the need to ask him what he meant? ---
**Author:** ![haymarketmartyr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/35a633/32.png) [@haymarketmartyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/haymarketmartyr)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haymarketmartyr-welcome-to-the-club/481953/15 "2009-01-19T19:48:09Z")
Ethilrist > [@](#): > > Why did you feel the need to ask him what he meant? As I said in the post above… but I will repeat again… there was a large contingent of anarchist support engaged in the various strike activities that led to the Haymarket Massacre. Several admitted anarchists were killed. There is a division today of libertariansim which is identified as anarchaic in nature and belief. My handle, could be interpreted at least two different ways 1)pro labor, or 2) pro anarchy or even a type of modern libertarianism. In either case, I wanted to know why Vox felt that it indicated I was opposed to his own idealogy. I was asking Vox why he felt he could draw a conclusion from it when it was multi-meaning… or at least could be. You cannot always judge a book by its cover. ---
**Author:** ![Cicero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cicero/32/3594_2.png) [@Cicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cicero)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haymarketmartyr-welcome-to-the-club/481953/16 "2009-01-19T19:56:00Z")
> [@haymarketmartyr](#): > > Vox > > I do have one question for you based on your post analyzing and dissecting me. You said this regarding the name I have adopted > > ( > > How so? That was a pretty lame attempt to give exposure to an item you seem interested in - why not just start a thread? ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haymarketmartyr-welcome-to-the-club/481953/17 "2009-01-19T19:56:22Z")
> [@haymarketmartyr](#): > > My handle, could be interpreted at least two different ways 1)pro labor, or 2) pro anarchy or even a type of modern libertarianism. > > In either case, I wanted to know why Vox felt that it indicated I was opposed to his own idealogy. > > I was asking Vox why he felt he could draw a conclusion from it when it was multi-meaning… or at least could be. No, actually, what you asked was: > [@](#): > > How so? and left it up to all of us to fill in the explanation behind your question. > [@](#): > > You cannot always judge a book by its cover. However, in this case, I think I can safely go with the OP’s analysis: those whom it is best to ignore rather than debate. Good day, sir. ---
**Author:** ![haymarketmartyr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/35a633/32.png) [@haymarketmartyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/haymarketmartyr)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haymarketmartyr-welcome-to-the-club/481953/18 "2009-01-19T20:02:38Z")
I do not have the foggiest idea what the hell you are doing Ethilrist. Or why. Or is it merely the burning of the hertic time again? ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haymarketmartyr-welcome-to-the-club/481953/19 "2009-01-19T20:06:59Z")
I’m agreeing with the OP. Your user name was your choice. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haymarketmartyr-welcome-to-the-club/481953/20 "2009-01-19T20:17:18Z")
> [@featherlou](#): > > Pictures are hung; people are hanged. Speak for yourself, tiny. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haymarketmartyr-welcome-to-the-club/481953.md?page=2)