# HBO's "Rome": Major nitpick **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 3, 2013, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hbos-rome-major-nitpick/649183 "2013-02-03T04:01:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2013, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hbos-rome-major-nitpick/649183/1 "2013-02-03T04:01:28Z")
So I’ve been watching _Rome,_ and in the second season, when Caesar has crossed the Rubicon and entered Rome, he’s trying to get everybody on his side, including the priests. At one point, in conjunction with offering a lavish bribe, he says to a priest, “Oh, I don’t know much about religion, I’ll leave that to you priests, I’m just a simple soldier.” Not delivered as a joke, either. :smack: Did the writers research the character at **all?!** Caesar never would have said that and hoped anybody would buy it. [Gaius Julius Caesar](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_Caesar) knew a **lot** about the Roman state religion. As a boy/teenager he was the _Flamen Dialis,_ the chief priest of Jupiter. (He was removed from that office under Sulla’s dictatorship because the family of his first wife, Cornelia Cinna Minor, had been proscribed by Sulla. The _Flamen Dialis_ had to be 1) a citizen of patrician rank and 2) married to one. His wife was no longer a citizen.) Later, as an adult, but long before he took up soldiering, he was elected _Pontifex Maximus,_ the supreme priest of the state religion (yes, it was an elected office) – and he held that office **for the rest of his life.** If he wanted to get the priests on his side, he need only remind them that he was already the boss-priest. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2013, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hbos-rome-major-nitpick/649183/2 "2013-02-03T04:21:04Z")
Second _episode_\* I think you mean, not second season. At any rate if you’re going to let _that_ bother you, this series is going to give you apoplexy in short order :D. It’s really well done show, with lots of good acting, nice set design, curious little Roman cultural tidbits sprinkled around and well-managed story lines. But in terms of strict historical accuracy…well…it’s TV. \*ETA: Actually I think it is episode 4. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2013, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hbos-rome-major-nitpick/649183/3 "2013-02-03T04:24:19Z")
I was too distracted by all the tits to notice the script. I loved that show. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2013, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hbos-rome-major-nitpick/649183/4 "2013-02-03T04:49:17Z")
Just to give this series a little more love, I have to say that not only are Ciaran Hinds’ Caesar and James Purefoy’s Antony my favorite characters in the series ( even ahead of the principal protagonists ), I think they might be the best versions of either character conceived for TV or film, if perhaps not stage. Really excellent work by both gentlemen. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2013, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hbos-rome-major-nitpick/649183/5 "2013-02-03T04:54:20Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > Second _episode_\* I think you mean, not second season. The DVD case was labeled “Second Season.” ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2013, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hbos-rome-major-nitpick/649183/6 "2013-02-03T05:00:38Z")
It sounds, from your description that these were largely political offices, and that one didn’t need any particular religious knowledge or devotion to attain them. If that’s correct, this doesn’t sound like an error to me - he’s telling the priests that, as their ostensible boss, he’s not going to interfere with how they run the temples. Therefore, they should support him, rather than someone else, who might be more of a meddler. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2013, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hbos-rome-major-nitpick/649183/7 "2013-02-03T05:01:17Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > The DVD case was labeled “Second Season.” Reported for thread title change. (_Two_ nitpicks) ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2013, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hbos-rome-major-nitpick/649183/8 "2013-02-03T05:03:00Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > The DVD case was labeled “Second Season.” That scene is not in the second season, I can guarantee that. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2013, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hbos-rome-major-nitpick/649183/9 "2013-02-03T05:14:30Z")
Yea, its a great show, but the actual history is at best, highly compressed. Your “major nitpick” is pretty minor compared to a lot of the other stuff. Examples just from Octavian’s family: Octavian had a step father during most of the period covered by the show, and his mother should be dead for much of the time she’s depicted as a major character. And Octavia should have a mess of children, including some by Mark Anthony. ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2013, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hbos-rome-major-nitpick/649183/10 "2013-02-03T05:26:45Z")
Well, one thing: Caesar was a snarky, snappy, sarcastic son of a bitch. He might well have thrown that line out at the priests, knowing it was an outright lie, because he understood (correctly) that religion no longer had a damn thing to do with who controlled Rome. Political power in Rome now flowed from the blade of the gladius, not from the whims of priests. It no longer mattered that Caesar had been a priest because priests no longer mattered. I think it’s reductive to assume that Caesar literally believes that the priest doesn’t know the history here, or that if he wanted the priests on his side, he could simply tell them what to do. Eager subordinates are more enthusiastic than grouchy ones. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2013, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hbos-rome-major-nitpick/649183/11 "2013-02-03T07:14:28Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > Yea, its a great show, but the actual history is at best, highly compressed. Your “major nitpick” is pretty minor compared to a lot of the other stuff. > > Examples just from Octavian’s family: Octavian had a step father during most of the period covered by the show, and his mother should be dead for much of the time she’s depicted as a major character. And Octavia should have a mess of children, including some by Mark Anthony. Also gone are Octavian’s first two marriages and his daughter Julia, which is problematic considering how important she and her descendants (including Caligula and Nero) were. One reason they were stricken from the plot is a third season was expected but the series was cancelled a few episodes into the second, so they tried to get to post-Actium at a mad dash instead of in two seasons; that’s also why the kids don’t age at all right. (Atia’s second husband being stricken, though, was just to re-create Atia out of whole cloth as a '80s soap opera diva.) ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2013, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hbos-rome-major-nitpick/649183/12 "2013-02-03T07:34:06Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > …(Atia’s second husband being stricken, though, was just to re-create Atia out of whole cloth as a '80s soap opera diva.) Atia of the Julii was based on Octavian/Augustus’s wife, Livia Drusilla, and not his mother. The real Atia Balba Caesonia was a model of Roman matronhood according to ancient historians. That would however be rather boring to watch and then we wouldn’t get to see Octavian marry his mother. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2013, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hbos-rome-major-nitpick/649183/13 "2013-02-03T10:59:14Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > It sounds, from your description that these were largely political offices, and that one didn’t need any particular religious knowledge or devotion to attain them. If that’s correct, this doesn’t sound like an error to me - he’s telling the priests that, as their ostensible boss, he’s not going to interfere with how they run the temples. Therefore, they should support him, rather than someone else, who might be more of a meddler. This show is one I’ve watched dozens of times and I remember the scene clearly. He’s saying in a tone that clearly states “Support me and you’re going to continue being in charge. Why would a simple guy like me want to mess with things that we both know only a wise man like you could manage.” The scene basically went over the OP’s head. Gaius as presented in the show is one of the smartest motherfuckers I’ve seen in any series, even if he does wind up stabbed to death. ---
**Author:** ![sparky\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/77aa72/32.png) [@sparky\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sparky_1)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2013, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hbos-rome-major-nitpick/649183/14 "2013-02-03T12:20:01Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > This show is one I’ve watched dozens of times and I remember the scene clearly. He’s saying in a tone that clearly states “Support me and you’re going to continue being in charge. Why would a simple guy like me want to mess with things that we both know only a wise man like you could manage.” The scene basically went over the OP’s head. Gaius as presented in the show is one of the smartest motherfuckers I’ve seen in any series, even if he does wind up stabbed to death. Dude! Spoiler! (just kidding) ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2013, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hbos-rome-major-nitpick/649183/15 "2013-02-03T12:33:15Z")
Caesar was playing politics. “Oh, me? Oh, what do I know? I’m just a poor simple soldier, not wise and learned like your fine self.” He was buttering him up because he was bribing him, and telling him that Caesar wasn’t planning on interfering with the priesthood’s shenanigans in the city. With, of course, the implicit threat that a sword through the gut would be another way we could handle this. _Rome_, for some reason, caused me a lot of “ah-ha!” moments when I realized these were the great-great-great-great grandfathers of the men who created and ran the Mafia. ---
**Author:** ![YourAdHere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/65b543/32.png) [@YourAdHere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YourAdHere)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2013, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hbos-rome-major-nitpick/649183/16 "2013-02-03T14:10:27Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Caesar was playing politics. “Oh, me? Oh, what do I know? I’m just a poor simple soldier, not wise and learned like your fine self.” He was buttering him up because he was bribing him, and telling him that Caesar wasn’t planning on interfering with the priesthood’s shenanigans in the city. With, of course, the implicit threat that a sword through the gut would be another way we could handle this. > > _Rome_, for some reason, caused me a lot of “ah-ha!” moments when I realized these were the great-great-great-great grandfathers of the men who created and ran the Mafia. Were they, though? I know you’re probably not entirely serious, but just how close are modern Italians (yeah, I know, the Mafia is from Sicily ) to Ancient Romans with all the migrations of various peoples? Are they genetically "the same "? For one thing, there seem to have been more red heads in Italy in antiquity. ETA - this isn’t rhetorical, I really want to know, and should know, but don’t. Yet. ---
**Author:** ![Telperion](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telperion/32/509_2.png) [@Telperion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telperion)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2013, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hbos-rome-major-nitpick/649183/17 "2013-02-03T17:10:35Z")
> [@YourAdHere](#): > > Were they, though? I know you’re probably not entirely serious, but just how close are modern Italians (yeah, I know, the Mafia is from Sicily ) to Ancient Romans with all the migrations of various peoples? Are they genetically "the same "? For one thing, there seem to have been more red heads in Italy in antiquity. > > ETA - this isn’t rhetorical, I really want to know, and should know, but don’t. Yet. Well, in a broad sense, yes. Most currently living Europeans are related in some way when you go back that many generations, so that should hold true for mafia bosses also. That’s not to say they’ve necessarily lived in the same area for all that time, however. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2013, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hbos-rome-major-nitpick/649183/18 "2013-02-03T18:20:13Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > It sounds, from your description that these were largely political offices, and that one didn’t need any particular religious knowledge or devotion to attain them. If that’s correct, this doesn’t sound like an error to me - he’s telling the priests that, as their ostensible boss, he’s not going to interfere with how they run the temples. Therefore, they should support him, rather than someone else, who might be more of a meddler. No, there was no division between “official” priests and “religious” priests, which is what you are implying. The [College of Pontiffs](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/College_of_Pontiffs) were actual priests and the [_Pontifex Maximus_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontifex_Maximus) was the chief priest. Of course, like the Pope (who also uses the title of _Pontifex Maximus),_ his duties were mostly administrative, but, like the Pope, he still conducted ceremonies himself. > [@](#): > > **Duties** > > The main duty of the Pontifices was to maintain the pax deorum or “peace of the gods.”[20][21][22] > > The immense authority of the sacred college of pontiffs was centered on the Pontifex Maximus, the other pontifices forming his consilium or advising body. His functions were partly sacrificial or ritualistic, but these were the least important. His real power lay in the administration of jus divinum or divine law;[23] the information collected by the pontifices related to the Roman religious tradition was bound in a corpus which summarized dogma and other concepts. The chief departments of jus divinum may be described as follows: > 1.The regulation of all expiatory ceremonials needed as a result of pestilence, lightning, etc. > 2.The consecration of all temples and other sacred places and objects dedicated to the gods. > 3.The regulation of the calendar; both astronomically and in detailed application to the public life of the state. > 4.The administration of the law relating to burials and burying-places, and the worship of the Manes or dead ancestors. > 5.The superintendence of all marriages by conferratio, i.e. originally of all legal patrician marriages. > 6.The administration of the law of adoption and of testamentary succession. > 7.The regulation of the public morals, and fining and punishing offending parties. > > The pontifices had many relevant and prestigious functions such as being in charge of caring for the state archives, the keeping the official minutes of elected magistrates (see Fasti) and list of magistrates, and they kept the records of their own decisions (commentarii) and of the chief events of each year, the so-called “public diaries”, the Annales maximi.[24] > > The Pontifex Maximus was also subject to several taboos. Among them was the prohibition to leave Italy. Plutarch described Publius Cornelius Scipio Nasica Serapio (141–132 BC) as the first to leave Italy, after being forced by the Senate to do so, and thus break the sacred taboo. Publius Licinius Crassus Dives Mucianus (132–130 BC) was the first to leave Italy voluntarily. Afterwards it became common and no longer against the law for the Pontifex Maximus to leave Italy. Among the most notable of those who did was Julius Caesar (63–44 BC). > > The Pontifices were in charge of the Roman calendar and determined when intercalary months needed to be added to synchronize the calendar to the seasons. Since the Pontifices were often politicians, and because a Roman magistrate’s term of office corresponded with a calendar year, this power was prone to abuse: a Pontifex could lengthen a year in which he or one of his political allies was in office, or refuse to lengthen one in which his opponents were in power. This caused the calendar to become out of step with the seasons; for example, Caesar’s crossing of the Rubicon in January 49 BC actually took place in mid-autumn. Under his authority as Pontifex Maximus, Gaius Julius Caesar introduced the calendar reform that created the Julian calendar, with a fault of less than a day per century, and which remained the standard till the Gregorian reform in the 16th century. It also, coincidentally, made 46 BC, the year of Julius’s third consulship, 445 days long. In short, there was no aspect of the Roman religion of which Caesar could have professed ignorance. And **all** the priesthoods were “political offices” in the sense you are using the term; they did not require any particular “religious devotion” in a Christian sense, only that which every good Roman citizen was presumed to have. There were no prophets or mystics or saints in the Roman religion, it was all a matter of tradition and ritual. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2013, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hbos-rome-major-nitpick/649183/19 "2013-02-03T18:26:59Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > _Rome_, for some reason, caused me a lot of “ah-ha!” moments when I realized these were the great-great-great-great grandfathers of the men who created and ran the Mafia. Spiritually, at least . . . BTW, I just learned of a new Italian movie called [_Caesar Must Die._](http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/caesar_must_die_2012/) It is set in a prison where the prisoners are staging a production of Shakespeare’s _Julius Caesar._ > [@](#): > > Winner of the Golden Bear at the Berlinale, Paolo and Vittorio Taviani’s Caesar Must Die deftly melds narrative and documentary in a transcendently powerful drama-within-a-drama. The film was made in Rome’s Rebibbia Prison, where the inmates are preparing to stage Shakespeare’s Julius Caesar. After a competitive casting process, the roles are eventually allocated, and the prisoners begin exploring the text, finding in its tale of fraternity, power and betrayal parallels to their own lives and stories. Hardened criminals, many with links to organised crime, these actors find great motivation in performing the play. As we witness the rehearsals, beautifully photographed in various nooks and crannies within the prison, we see the inmates also work through their own conflicts, both internal and between each other. ---
**Author:** ![FasterThanMeerkats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/278dde/32.png) [@FasterThanMeerkats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FasterThanMeerkats)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2013, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hbos-rome-major-nitpick/649183/20 "2013-02-03T18:39:50Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > If he wanted to get the priests on his side, he need only remind them that he was already the boss-priest. Ummm… because reminding people that you’re the boss always works in politics and real life and nobody ever takes it the wrong way (… until you get stabbed by a bunch of them). I’m in the Roman camp that he was just playing a nice, soft-power, game.🙂 [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hbos-rome-major-nitpick/649183.md?page=2)