# He becoming She: How's it done? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 4, 2004, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-becoming-she-hows-it-done/258284 "2004-08-04T14:00:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![umop\_ap\_sdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/dbc845/32.png) [@umop\_ap\_sdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/umop_ap_sdn)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2004, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-becoming-she-hows-it-done/258284/81 "2004-08-10T06:23:18Z")
> [@Mighty\_Girl](#): > > I am the least judgemental person you could find and always try to see life through other people’s eyes but I wasn’t born all-knowing (don’t believe everything you are told 🙂 ) So instead of assuming malice just think of ignorance. Seconded, especially the last sentence. It is rather frustrating when people get offended instead of explaining themselves. > [@DocCathode](#): > > It’s a very confusing subject. You have at least three scales- sexual orientation, sexual identity, and gender identity. OK, I think I understand what sexual orientation is, but am still unclear as to how sexual identity differs from gender identity. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2004, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-becoming-she-hows-it-done/258284/82 "2004-08-10T06:34:09Z")
> [@cityboy916](#): > > Seconded, especially the last sentence. It is rather frustrating when people get offended instead of explaining themselves. As was pointed out, **Eve** expressed offence when someone compared her to a person who believes he is a snake, and stated he didn’t think she is a woman. In that circumstance, I don’t think it’s up to her to explain herself. ---
**Author:** ![kwikwitty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/53a042/32.png) [@kwikwitty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kwikwitty)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2004, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-becoming-she-hows-it-done/258284/83 "2004-08-10T09:47:43Z")
> [@matt\_mcl](#): > > As was pointed out, **Eve** expressed offence when someone compared her to a person who believes he is a snake, and stated he didn’t think she is a woman. In that circumstance, I don’t think it’s up to her to explain herself. I never implied that _Eve_, specifically, wasn’t a woman. That, you have invented yourself. I don’t even know her. The afore-apologised-for snake analogy was supposed to demonstrate that just because a person says they are a snake doesn’t make it so. And likewise, just because a person says they are female doesn’t make it so. I made these comments with an example in mind that I gave earlier in the thread, of a person with a penis who had had surgery to transform it into a vagina, but then didn’t feel comfortable as a female, and had the surgery reversed. I was just interested as to whether He or She would be used in this case, not for purposes of trapping or constraining ‘delusional’ people into categories, but just so I could refer to another human being without having a half hour debate on what pronouns he/she would or would not find offensive. So just to clear up, the snake analogy was not related to Eve. I think some posters have said something true in that my ignorance may have been mistaken for hostility or assault in this thread, but I also think it true that some posters need to develop a thicker skin and realise that not every comment that _can_ be taken the wrong way, should. In addition, I think Eve should consider herself lucky that people are prepared to consider her feelings on this subject, seeing as she called the person from the above example ‘bat-shit crazy’. If you want to be accepted, you must accept. ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2004, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-becoming-she-hows-it-done/258284/84 "2004-08-10T11:49:58Z")
> [@kwikwitty](#): > > And likewise, just because a person says they are female doesn’t make it so. Actually, pretty much, it does, there being no known objective way to ascertain gender identity. If a person who is otherwise sane claims to be female (and isn’t deliberately lying), then they’re female. > [@kwikwitty](#): > > In addition, I think Eve should consider herself lucky that people are prepared to consider her feelings on this subject, seeing as she called the person from the above example ‘bat-shit crazy’. If you want to be accepted, you must accept. I think that **Eve** ’s ability to spot batshittery is one of her better talents, and certainly not grounds for taking her less seriously on other issues. ---
**Author:** ![kwikwitty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/53a042/32.png) [@kwikwitty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kwikwitty)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2004, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-becoming-she-hows-it-done/258284/85 "2004-08-10T13:02:49Z")
KellyM, please explain to me why Eve deserves to be treated with respect concerning her ‘confusion’, if she does not respect the person from the previous example regarding theirs. Do you guys make the rules? How do you expect to help the world become a more understanding and accepting place when you call someone ‘bat-shit crazy’ for being a little more confused about their sex than yourself. From this view point, what is the difference between Eve calling the person from the example 'bat-shit crazy, and me calling Eve ‘bat-shit crazy’? Which I must add, with lighting quick reflexes, I am not doing. ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2004, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-becoming-she-hows-it-done/258284/86 "2004-08-10T13:39:51Z")
> [@kwikwitty](#): > > KellyM, please explain to me why Eve deserves to be treated with respect concerning her ‘confusion’, if she does not respect the person from the previous example regarding theirs. **Eve** isn’t confused about anything (well, ok, some things, but not this). And **Eve** deserves to be treated with respect because she’s a lady. End of story. > [@kwikwitty](#): > > From this view point, what is the difference between Eve calling the person from the example 'bat-shit crazy, and me calling Eve ‘bat-shit crazy’? Because we all know **Eve** , and we know that when she says someone is bat-shit crazy, we can be quite well assured that they are. ---
**Author:** ![kwikwitty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/53a042/32.png) [@kwikwitty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kwikwitty)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2004, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-becoming-she-hows-it-done/258284/87 "2004-08-10T13:51:50Z")
> [@KellyM](#): > > **Eve** isn’t confused about anything (well, ok, some things, but not this). And **Eve** deserves to be treated with respect because she’s a lady. End of story. > > Because we all know **Eve** , and we know that when she says someone is bat-shit crazy, we can be quite well assured that they are. Well, with attitudes like yours, I wish you all the luck in the world with your lives… you’ll need it! Cheers to all for lots of info and interesting splinter topics. I guess the one important thing I learned from this thread was… never try to reason with a transexual. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2004, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-becoming-she-hows-it-done/258284/88 "2004-08-10T16:17:50Z")
Fine, then. Don’t pay attention to what _anybody_ said in this thread, because you found one person in it too astringent for your taste. ---
**Author:** ![kwikwitty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/53a042/32.png) [@kwikwitty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kwikwitty)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2004, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-becoming-she-hows-it-done/258284/89 "2004-08-10T17:32:24Z")
> [@matt\_mcl](#): > > Fine, then. Don’t pay attention to what _anybody_ said in this thread, because you found one person in it too astringent for your taste. Fair point… ---
**Author:** ![Turek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/turek/32/18782_2.png) [@Turek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Turek)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2004, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-becoming-she-hows-it-done/258284/90 "2004-08-10T18:36:04Z")
> [@KellyM](#): > > **Eve** isn’t confused about anything (well, ok, some things, but not this). And **Eve** deserves to be treated with respect because she’s a lady. End of story. > > Because we all know **Eve** , and we know that when she says someone is bat-shit crazy, we can be quite well assured that they are. I call BS on this. I don’t know Eve from the next person I pass on the street, and I have no reason to believe her judgment of people is any better than some other random stranger. All I know is, she labeled someone as “bat-shit crazy” just because she didn’t happen to identify or agree with their personal vision - or lack thereof - of themselves. People who demand politically correctness don’t get to pick and choose who has a right to be offended and who doesn’t. If Eve doesn’t want to be labeled as “bat-shit crazy” (and I’m sure there are plenty of people who would choose to do so, much to her indignation), then she simply shouldn’t be willing to label others as that. It’s not a difficult concept to grasp. ---
**Author:** ![umop\_ap\_sdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/dbc845/32.png) [@umop\_ap\_sdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/umop_ap_sdn)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2004, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-becoming-she-hows-it-done/258284/91 "2004-08-10T18:47:02Z")
> [@matt\_mcl](#): > > As was pointed out, **Eve** expressed offence when someone compared her to a person who believes he is a snake, and stated he didn’t think she is a woman. Yes I understand that. 🙂 I am not referring to this specific thread; I am referring to the more general concern that time and time again, certain posters seem to be taking offense more often than seems reasonable. > [@cityboy916](#): > > I am still unclear as to how sexual identity differs from gender identity. So is yet another of my questions going to be ignored? Or is the answer buried five levels deep in the links in one of the cites others have already linked to? Even if it is in there somewhere, was it out of line for me to even ask? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2004, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-becoming-she-hows-it-done/258284/92 "2004-08-10T19:07:58Z")
The person who used the term “sexual identity” in this thread may be using the term to mean “gender identity” as others have used it, i.e. to mean the deep awareness of being of one’s gender, as distinct from the various aspects of physical sex, or from the various gender roles one outwardly adopts. As it’s generally used, “sexual identity” usually means all aspects of a person’s identity that relate to sex, that is, a person’s identity in relation to their physical sex, gender identity, gender roles, sexual history, sexual psychology, sexual orientation, fetishes, beliefs, etc. ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2004, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-becoming-she-hows-it-done/258284/93 "2004-08-10T19:56:54Z")
> [@cityboy916](#): > > Yes I understand that. 🙂 I am not referring to this specific thread; I am referring to the more general concern that time and time again, certain posters seem to be taking offense more often than seems reasonable. There is a difference between pointing out that something is (or may be) offensive, and taking offense. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2004, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-becoming-she-hows-it-done/258284/94 "2004-08-10T20:12:56Z")
The wording is sometimes needlessly harsher than it need be. I understand that you will have on occassions all the reasons to be offended, but why not assuming that the person doesn’t know better. What happens, if somebody encounters, probably through the wrong source these subject and the only word she/he’s heard is ‘she-male’? Even _I_ see why it would be offending, but some ten years ago, I wouldn’t have even had \*that \* word, so whatever term I would have used, whater misconception I would have had would have been even more offensive. I wish all that made sense. It makes sense in my head. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2004, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-becoming-she-hows-it-done/258284/95 "2004-08-10T22:18:56Z")
Re Acceptance, Judgement And Being Guano Loco Gender identity disorder is a recognized condition. The only accepted treatment of this condition is hormone replacement therapy and eventual sexual reassignment surgery. As I said in a previous post, a patient who has undergone srs several times does not have gender identity disorder. They have some variety of mental illness. My grandfather was a schizophrenic. I am manic depressive. Without treatment or medication, both these conditions can cause behavior which is accurately described as ‘batshit crazy’. In this case ‘batshit crazy’ is not simply an insult. It is a layperson’s diagnosis. I’m convinced that a full spectrum of psychiatric testing, and a consultation of the DSM IV would reveal a condition characterized by ‘behavior and thinking that are batshit crazy’ Re Eve’s Confusion I’ve never heard **Eve** express any confusion about her gender. To describe gender identity disorder as confusion is inaccurate. Re Sexual And Gender Identity By sexual identity I mean biology- chromosomes, genitals, internal organs, and the brain. In most people, these all line up- XY with a penis, testicles, scrotum, and a male brain or XX with a vagina, uterus, ovaries, and a female brain. Transexuals have a brain that conflicts with the other characteristics. Again post mortem studies of the termina strialis are not conclusive proof, but they are very strong evidence of this. Intersexed individuals may have conflicting or completely ambiguous characteristics. Klinefelter’s Syndrome is a male who is XXY. These men have a feminine distribution of body fat and are sterile. Turner’s Syndrome is XO. Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome results in a female with very little body hair, extremely feminine features, and one whose chromosomes are XY. There are other conditions in which the external genitalia do not match the chromosomes, brain, or internal structures. By gender identity, I mean behavior and the social construct of gender. In recent years the term metrosexual was invented to describe heterosexual men who engage in behaviors typically associated with women or gay men. Tomboy has long describe girls who engage in masculine behavior. ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2004, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-becoming-she-hows-it-done/258284/96 "2004-08-10T22:31:20Z")
> [@Mighty\_Girl](#): > > What happens, if somebody encounters, probably through the wrong source these subject and the only word she/he’s heard is ‘she-male’? Even _I_ see why it would be offending, but some ten years ago, I wouldn’t have even had \*that \* word, so whatever term I would have used, whater misconception I would have had would have been even more offensive. Well, in the past when I’ve run into people using ‘she-male’ my comment has usually been “The term ‘she-male’ is extremely offensive, on a par with ‘whore’. Please do not use this term to refer to anyone who you do not wish to insult basely.” How more polite do you wish for me to be? ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2004, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-becoming-she-hows-it-done/258284/97 "2004-08-11T01:15:24Z")
> [@KellyM](#): > > How more polite do you wish for me to be? Maybe I should have stressed even more that I wasn’t talking about you (KellyM) in particular, but about you in general. If you never do it, good for you. No need to get defensive. ---
**Author:** ![Dog80](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6bbea6/32.png) [@Dog80](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dog80)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2004, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-becoming-she-hows-it-done/258284/98 "2004-08-11T10:52:15Z")
> [@kwikwitty](#): > > I guess the one important thing I learned from this thread was… never try to reason with a transexual. I have come to the same conclusion myself. All the threads of this kind seem to me like a minefield. One “wrong” question and you are flamed. The loads of constantly-changing jargon and words that are arbitrarily considered “offensive” don’t make things any easier. Transexuals want acceptance from society. Flaming people is not the way to achieve it. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2004, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-becoming-she-hows-it-done/258284/99 "2004-08-11T14:53:46Z")
_Nobody_ has flamed _any_ other poster in this thread, **Dog80** , not even when **Eve** actually took offence to the “snakes” comment, which was then apologized for. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2004, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-becoming-she-hows-it-done/258284/100 "2004-08-11T17:45:50Z")
> [@matt\_mcl](#): > > _Nobody_ has flamed _any_ other poster in this thread, **Dog80** , not even when **Eve** actually took offence to the “snakes” comment, which was then apologized for. Err - didn’t the idea of **Eve** saying that someone who was confused about their gender was “bat-shit crazy” strike you as a teeny bit ironic? How is the notion that “once you change sex, you better stick with it or you must be crazy” any different than “stick with whatever sex you were born with”? Regards, Shodan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-becoming-she-hows-it-done/258284.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-becoming-she-hows-it-done/258284.md?page=6)