I didn’t find anything in this thread remotely offensive till this, which is more than Pit-worthy.
No, it’s not. Please read some of the other threads on this topic to better understand why.
KellyM, this thread was setup in order to discover the variety of ways people can be realigned as regards to gender, and the effectiveness of the resulting organs. Not to define what a man and a woman is. I understand fully that people are brought into this world believing they should have been born in the opposing physical form… but they were not, and are classified according to their genitalia.
Perhaps it would have been better had I said, 'If you are born with a penis you are in the body of a male… a vagina, female". And perhaps the thread should have been titled, “Male body becoming a female body: How’s it done?” As, after all, the question addresses the physical factors of realignment surgery, not the psychological factors that may well take place a year before.
And Eve, I admit that my analogy with the snake was silly, but it made it’s point, “You are pigeon-holed by nature/society according to what characteristics you display, regardless of your feelings” This may not be ‘nice’ or what people want, but nevertheless true. My comments were in no way meant to take anything away from someone who claims to be female and yet has the body of a male.
People cannot be realigned with regard to gender; gender is fixed and immutable from birth. Sexual reassignment surgery changes external biomorphic sex. Gender is not determined by one’s genitals, and is not subject to change by any mechanism heretofore discovered. Your question dealt with changing sex, not with changing gender. Please be clear as to the distinction, and please do not recite as fact the falsehood that gender and sex are the same thing. I should add that not only is is plausible that all male-to-female transsexuals are born with the “body of a male but the brain of a female”, but in fact this is the case.
Society does tend to classify people into male and female by their genitals; however, experience has shown us that this classification is incorrect in some small percentage of cases, those cases being those people known as transsexuals. Society is wrong here, and there is no reason why we should blithely stand about and let the ignorant notions of the general population stand unquestioned, let alone rule our lives.
If you wish to debate these statements, feel free to take that debate to Great Debates (or the BBQ Pit); that debate does not belong here.
QUOTE=Kwikwitty My comments were in no way meant to take anything away from someone who claims to be female and yet has the body of a male.
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I find this offensive. To phrase it this way suggests, to me anyway, indulging the delusions of a person you consider mentally ill. ‘If you claim to be Napoleon, I’ll salute you and treat you like Napoleon. But, I know you’re really just a crazy guy who was born in New Jersey.’ Again, do a web search on ‘dimorphism in the human brain’. Transsexuals are making a claim, yes. All the research I know of in that area, and all the analysis of that research which I’ve read, supports that claim as biological fact. While we cannot get detailed enough images or extract samples from the termina strialis of KellyM or Eve while they are still alive, all data supports the hyothesis that a post mortem examination of their brains will reveal them to be female.
Classifying a human being by external genitalia alone is inadequate. To truly determine a person’s sex we must look at- external genitalia, internal structures, chromosomal sex, and neurological sex. In most humans, all of these match. In transexuals, neurological sex is at odds with the others. For more information on how and why other indicators can conflict, visit The Intersex Society Of North America.
As Eve says, there was nothing offensive about this threrad until you made a gratuitous comment suggesting that those seeking gender reassignment are somehow delusional.
And as DocCathode suggests, you might want to do a little more research about how the sexes are categorized. Even a science dumbass like me knows that chromosomal differences (XX, XY) play a role in this, and DocCathode has pointed to other issues.
If you’re interested in reading a radical take on sex and gender classification, might i suggest Judith Butler, Gender Trouble. It’s a tough read, and i don’t agree with everything she has to say, but it is interesting.
I don’t believe there is a reputable doctor or psychologist that agrees with this when it comes to humans. It’s a Webster’s Dictionary definition, sure, but it’s nowhere near that simple.
As a side question since we’re on the topic, how does the sense of “otherness” express itself as a …umm… looking for the word… “body-mind gestalt state” I guess.
I’m fairly typically “male” in most things re my perspectives, though I do write poetry, and like to think I’m reasonably sensitive once beaned with a 2’x4’. I really just can’t imagine myself as a woman. Trying to imagine it as gedanken experiment where I’m walking around in a woman’s smaller, less muscular, (and less hairy) body seems be wrong feeling. Hmmm…God I would be an ugly woman.
Anyway, when does the socialization to gender role break down? Is it almost immediate from the time you are self aware as a young child or does it manifest itself as a recognition of being in the wrong physical template when you are older?
And I thought a Webster’s Dictionary definition would have been fine for the purposes of the enquiry of this thread… I was wrong.
I sincerely apologize for the snake analogy, it was ill-thought out and insensitive, but it was truly not meant to imply transexuals as delusional.
All I was trying to say was that everything is categorized in life, and we cannot change someone’s category just because they want it changed. Now I know you’re all gonna shoot me down and say that transexuals don’t opt for the life they have, so are due their change of category, but I saw a Man on the ‘Richard & Judy’ show in the UK, who was born a male, felt he was actually a female so had the op, then had the op reversed a year later as the body of a woman wasn’t fitting. So what pronoun should I use when talking about this person? He? as he was born a man and returned to being one after a brief period spent as a female, Or She? as she felt she was a woman, at least some of the time.
Basically, He, is a generally accepted term for someone with a penis, and She, for someone with a vagina, and no more need have been said for the purposes of this enquiry.
You are right in that I need to do some serious research on the difference between sex and gender, and very correct in your statements that male and female being defined solely by sexual organ is an over-simplified view, but this never was meant to be a definition debate… purely simple uncontrived terms used in an innocent question.
Apology accepted; no hard feelings, dear.
I believe “batshit crazy” is the phrase you’re searching for.
So, he’s “batshit crazy” because his level of (what term can I use here without getting dogpiled?) “confusion” is one order of magnitude deeper than “normal” transexuals? And this from a person who previously jumped on a poster because he wasn’ t sensitive enough. :rolleyes:
I was gonna say…
Kelly, how old are you? The reason I ask is that I wonder if there is an age where they would not want to do the surgery because you’ll be (obviously) less and less able to bounce back from the surgery. Or will they do it regardless of age, as long as your general health is OK.
Someone who goes, “I’m a man! I’m a woman! I’m a man! I’m a woman! I’m a man! I’m a woman!” is not a transsexual. Roll your eyes all ya want, babycakes.
How are Dr. Meltzer and Dr. Shrang doing these days? (Those were the two hip-and-happening SRS doctors I heard about in the mid-1990s when I was dating two hermaphrodites. Apparently, all the cool transsexual kids were going to them at the time.)
True. But if it happens to be one of those lip-syncers that they had on Puttin’ on the Hits in the '80’s who’s Diana Ross on one side and Stevie Wonder on the other, and they rotate back and forth, that’s pretty cool.
What?
How insensitive of me. I should have written “when I was dating two intersex people.”
If you want to demand tolerance, respect, and sensitivity, it shouldn’t only apply to situations you identify with or agree with. At least show others the respect you require.
You should use whatever pronoun this person prefers. That is the polite thing to do. (And it’s the “correct” way, according to modern journalistic stylebooks.)