# he Chronicles of Narnia: Good Adult read? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 4, 2005, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-chronicles-of-narnia-good-adult-read/288282 "2005-02-04T00:35:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Nawth\_Chucka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c57346/32.png) [@Nawth\_Chucka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nawth_Chucka)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2005, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-chronicles-of-narnia-good-adult-read/288282/21 "2005-02-04T04:13:00Z")
Actually, as an adult discovering books on tape, I found they’re even more enjoyable now; when I read them as a child, I certainly couldn’t empathize w/ some of the character’s struggles like I can now. Christian or otherwise, the challenges they faced we **all** will face as humans on Earth. ---
**Author:** ![Athena](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/35a633/32.png) [@Athena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Athena)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2005, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-chronicles-of-narnia-good-adult-read/288282/22 "2005-02-04T04:35:53Z")
Narnia is probably my favorite set of books of all time, and as such, I heartily recomend you read them - in the original order, as others have said. I was introduced to them by my 4th grade Catholic school teacher. Even so, I was an adult before I even realized that there were any Christian themes to them. Sure, there’s some allegory in the first and the last book, but hey, if you don’t like it, just deal with it like any other allegory - a retelling of an old myth. Big fookin’ deal. I particularly like how Lewis never makes his kids too stupid, or just wandering around trying to outsmart the adults and get their way. They’re challenged to overcome the odds, and to do the right thing even when everything is against them. Like **Portia** said, “the challenges they faced we all will face as humans on Earth.” > [@](#): > > Lewis goes into a clear anti-Darwin rant, evidenced by the ape who’s determined to convince people he’s a human. I never got any bits of anti-Darwinism out of the ape bit in “The Last Battle.” Rather, I got the idea that one shouldn’t pretend to be something you aren’t, and that just because someone pretends to be smart & important doesn’t mean they are. If there’s any anti-Darwinism there, it escaped me both as a child and an adult. And, for what it’s worth, despite Catholic school and all that, I’m just about as much anti-religion as you can be, and I still love the books. ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2005, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-chronicles-of-narnia-good-adult-read/288282/23 "2005-02-04T04:52:58Z")
[This website](http://www.apologetics.org/acworthletters1.html) (from the CS Lewis Society, I think) addresses the issue of Lewis and evolution. Here’s the summary from page 6 (I’ve thus far read only pp 5-6): > [@](#): > > [Lewis] always carefully indicated that he opposed evolutionism as a philosophy, not evolution as a biological theory. At the same time his correspondence with Bernard Acworth suggests that he had come in his later years to entertain more doubts about the claims made for organic evolution than his published works indicate. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2005, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-chronicles-of-narnia-good-adult-read/288282/24 "2005-02-04T05:12:25Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > [Whatever you do, never make the mistake of thinking Aslan is a _safe_ lion.](http://www.sacbee.com/content/news/story/12208115p-13072303c.html) He’s not a _tame_ lion. As for the order, whatever Lewis might have wished, I concur that they are best read in order of publication, not chronological order. That would be: [ol] [li]_The Lion, The Witch, and the Wardrobe_[/li][li]_Prince Caspian_[/li][li]_The Voyage of the ‘Dawn Treader’_[/li][li]_The Silver Chair_[/li][li]_A Horse and His Boy_[/li][li]_The Magician’s Nephew_[/li][li]_The Last Battle_[/li][/ol] And unless you are a completist, you might consider skipping the last one. It’s my least favorite of all, and the most blatant Christian (apocalyptic) allegory. The religious references in the rest of the books are subtle or general enough that they don’t interfere with the stories. Stranger I did those all from memory. I _really_ need to get out more. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2005, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-chronicles-of-narnia-good-adult-read/288282/25 "2005-02-04T05:48:40Z")
“It certainly is my opinion that a book worth reading only in childhood is not worth reading even then.” -C. S. Lewis ---
**Author:** ![Leviosaurus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/439d5e/32.png) [@Leviosaurus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leviosaurus)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2005, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-chronicles-of-narnia-good-adult-read/288282/26 "2005-02-04T07:36:58Z")
> [@Athena](#): > > I never got any bits of anti-Darwinism out of the ape bit in “The Last Battle.” Rather, I got the idea that one shouldn’t pretend to be something you aren’t, and that just because someone pretends to be smart & important doesn’t mean they are. If there’s any anti-Darwinism there, it escaped me both as a child and an adult. > > And, for what it’s worth, despite Catholic school and all that, I’m just about as much anti-religion as you can be, and I still love the books. I just reread a couple of the passages, and maybe it’s my cynical nature, but it just screams “anti-Darwin” to me: > [@C.S. Lewis](#): > > “…And now there’s another thing you’ve got to learn,” said the Ape, “I hear some of you saying I’m an Ape. Well I’m not. I’m a Man. if I look like an Ape, that’s because I’m very old: hundreds and hundreds of years old…” > > …(The Narnian King responds:) “Ape,” he cried with a great voice, “You lie. You lie damnably. You lie like a Calormene. You lie like an Ape.” The line “if I look like an ape, it’s because I’m hundreds of years old” seems to me to be a pretty clear swipe at Darwinists, who show people skeletons of apes and say ‘These are actually men, they look like apes because they are millions of years old…’ Seems to me that’s what Lewis was trying to say anyway. One other thing that bothered me about “The Last Battle” was the way the Calormene were referenced. For those who haven’t read the series, the Calormene are the people who live in the country adjacent to the magical land of Narnia. Throughout most of the series very little is said about them. In “the Last Battle” it’s revealed that they worship a god with four arms and the head of a bird, and they engage in human sacrifice. Although Humans are held in the absolute highest esteem throughout the land of Narnia, the Calormene are exceptions, and are held in disdain. Could this be a subtle message of racial inferiority, or at least non-Christian inferiority? Lest my comments result in massive flameage: I really _do_ like these books a lot, and reccomend them to any young reader or fan of fantasy. I honestly look forward to reading them to my own kids. I’ll read them “The Last Battle” too, and maybe I’ll have a discussion with them about what it means. Or maybe I won’t - I read it as a kid, and any hidden political statements clearly left no impression on me whatsoever. But since the subject came up… anybody besides me think “The Last Battle” is a bit reactionary? ---
**Author:** ![Nametag](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nametag/32/406_2.png) [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2005, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-chronicles-of-narnia-good-adult-read/288282/27 "2005-02-04T07:54:14Z")
**Leviosaurus** , I disagree about the “anti-Darwinism” as well, but Lewis is not around to ask. _The Last battle_ is indeed a bit apocalyptic, but I disagree about the way the Calormene are treated. While Lewis is indeed a bit parochial here, and the Calormene are clearly “wogs,” the great god Tash appears as a real god, and punishes the Calormene prince for his war on Narnia (er, something like that), showing that Tash is part of a natural order, and has a role in the universe. ---
**Author:** ![LeeshaJoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e8cbc/32.png) [@LeeshaJoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LeeshaJoy)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2005, 8:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-chronicles-of-narnia-good-adult-read/288282/28 "2005-02-04T08:27:44Z")
> [@Nametag](#): > > **Leviosaurus** , I disagree about the “anti-Darwinism” as well, but Lewis is not around to ask. > > _The Last battle_ is indeed a bit apocalyptic, but I disagree about the way the Calormene are treated. While Lewis is indeed a bit parochial here, and the Calormene are clearly “wogs,” the great god Tash appears as a real god, and punishes the Calormene prince for his war on Narnia (er, something like that), showing that Tash is part of a natural order, and has a role in the universe. My understanding was that Tash is analogous to Satan. ---
**Author:** ![Briny\_Deep](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/briny_deep/32/17188_2.png) [@Briny\_Deep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Briny_Deep)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2005, 8:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-chronicles-of-narnia-good-adult-read/288282/29 "2005-02-04T08:47:29Z")
Calormen and the Calormenes are the biggest problem with modern Narnia readings and adaptations – they are clearly Muslim/Arab stereotypes. Still, in The Last Battle we have the good Calormene (Emeth), who served Tash with love and loyalty, and was rewarded by Aslan in the end. I cringe at the dated brown-bashing but I don’t argue with the theology – all who love, are of God, and all who don’t, aren’t – regardless of political and cultural allegiance. ---
**Author:** ![Ithaka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Ithaka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ithaka)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2005, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-chronicles-of-narnia-good-adult-read/288282/30 "2005-02-04T13:32:51Z")
I loved these books as a kid and still reread them now - but even as a kid I had a problem with _The Last Battle_. To sum up, I agree the ape is an anti-Darwin jibe. The bad guys are turban-wearing Arabs (maybe Americans don’t have a problem with this?). And Susan doesn’t get into heaven because she wears make-up and is starting to like boys? Nice books Mr Lewis, but I think you went off the rails at the end. ---
**Author:** ![Dung\_Beetle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dung_beetle/32/7945_2.png) [@Dung\_Beetle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dung_Beetle)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2005, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-chronicles-of-narnia-good-adult-read/288282/31 "2005-02-04T13:58:33Z")
> [@Baker](#): > > Christmas of 1999, I participated in a gingerbread building display. I did my own version of the castle of Cair Paravel, decorated for Christmas. In one corner I even had a frozen stream, with a beaver lodge and a teeny Christmas tree topping it, with Mr. and Mrs Beaver looking it over. Won first prize in the professional category. That’s the coolest thing I ever heard. I wish I’d gotten to see it. ---
**Author:** ![Athena](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/35a633/32.png) [@Athena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Athena)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2005, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-chronicles-of-narnia-good-adult-read/288282/32 "2005-02-04T14:10:45Z")
I guess what it boils down to is if you think that an Ape trying to pass as a man is in itself anti-Darwin, then The Last Battle has strong anti-Darwin imagery. I just don’t read it that way. But then again, I never saw _any_ strong Christian imagery in the books - like I said, as a child, reading them in Catholic school, I completely missed it. As an adult, I see it, but hell, it’s a damn good story and written on a level that completely surpasses the schlock that passes as “children’s literature” today. (Yes, I’m looking at you, Harry Potter.) To me, the best books explore Good vs. Evil, overcoming the bad guys through strength of character, and all that. It’s hard to do that in Western literature without touching on some Christian allegories - it is, after all, the predominant mythos of the West, and IMO it would almost be lax to write a Good vs. Evil book and NOT explore the Christian side of it. Like I said in my first post - if any bit of allegory offends you, then don’t read Narnia. But if you enjoy a well-written, insightful, delightful story, go for it. The Christian values that come through are mostly the bits that we all agree with - don’t lie, be kind to your fellow man, etc. C. S. also shows an amazing bit of tolerance in comparison to many of today’s Christian sects - stating, in one place, that any good deed counts as a good deed in Aslan’s eyes, even if it’s made in the name of the devil (Tash), and any bad deed, even if it’s made in Aslan’s name, belongs to Tash. He never preaches the one thing that really pisses me off about most religions - namely, that you can quit thinking about issues because you belong to Church X, just sit back and do what the Church tells you. The importance of personal responsibility comes through in the stories - one thing I don’t see in a lot of kid’s books. I’m about ready for a re-read myself. _wanders off to go gather up her books_ ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2005, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-chronicles-of-narnia-good-adult-read/288282/33 "2005-02-04T14:19:02Z")
1. Why is Aslan a lion and not a lamb? Would that have been too limiting, too obvious, or something else? I noticed recently a religious establishment near by my office with a name something like “Lion of Judah”, but I’m not familiar with that. 2. Any particular reason for all of the fauns, satyrs, dryads, hamadryads, Silenus and Bacchus, etc? It seems odd to have those characters there, especially as some more modern Christians might think of those as at least vaguely evil. ---
**Author:** ![Athena](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/35a633/32.png) [@Athena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Athena)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2005, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-chronicles-of-narnia-good-adult-read/288282/34 "2005-02-04T14:48:39Z")
> [@ShibbOleth](#): > > 1. Why is Aslan a lion and not a lamb? Would that have been too limiting, too obvious, or something else? I noticed recently a religious establishment near by my office with a name something like “Lion of Judah”, but I’m not familiar with that. Because Narnia is a land of animals - not humans - and who is the king of the beasts? The lion, of course. > [@ShibbOleth](#): > > 1. Any particular reason for all of the fauns, satyrs, dryads, hamadryads, Silenus and Bacchus, etc? It seems odd to have those characters there, especially as some more modern Christians might think of those as at least vaguely evil. Because C.S. didn’t go about writing a preachy, Christian book, even though people think he did. He wanted it to be a good story, and he liked all those critters. Very little of the books are allegorical - the rest is just fables and storytelling, including the bits with fauns and Bacchus. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2005, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-chronicles-of-narnia-good-adult-read/288282/35 "2005-02-04T15:05:50Z")
> [@PunditLisa](#): > > I really enjoyed them as both a pre-teen and as an adult. > > Lewis was definitely Christian but he wasn’t a believer in the “one true and apostolic church,” if you will. There is one passage in the final book where one of the characters (a Prince? Sorry, it’s been awhile) who didn’t believe in Aslan is finally enlightened in the end and comes to believe that as a non-believer, he is doomed. Aslan assures him that he is unconcerned whether or not people worship him because every time this man treated someone kindly, he was indeed honoring Aslan. In other words, actions speak louder than words. > > I took this to mean that Lewis believed in an afterlife, but didn’t necessarily believe that you had to be a Christian to enjoy an afterlife. Take a read of Lewis’s THE GREAT DIVORCE, his fantasy about the Afterlife. To be precise, Lewis didn’t believe you had to be a Christian in this life to enjoy the afterlife. BUT you will definitely become a Christian in the afterlife if you are to enjoy it. The character Emeth was a good man, who worshipped Tash, a Satan-like being. Aslan accepted him for his goodness, but made it clear that He & not Tash was the true God. ---
**Author:** ![Snickers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@Snickers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snickers)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2005, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-chronicles-of-narnia-good-adult-read/288282/36 "2005-02-04T15:05:53Z")
Huh. I read these books to tatters (in the correct, published order; anything else is unthinkable) when I was a child, but I discovered you can’t go back again. When I tried to read one of them as an adult, I was supremely unsatisfied. Perhaps it was knowing the stories too well (I did read them to tatters), perhaps it was that I had just grown up. I found the characters shallow and undeveloped, the stories abrupt, the lessons obvious and unsubtile. And I felt that the religious aspect, while not obvious to me as a kid, was beating me over the head as an adult, which I tired of. “Yes, Lewis, I **get** it.” I only tried to re-read one as an adult (the first, I believe; not my beloved _Dawn Treader_\*, perhaps that would’ve fared better); I should go back and re-read the series to see what I think then. But I think that they work better when you’re a child. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2005, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-chronicles-of-narnia-good-adult-read/288282/37 "2005-02-04T15:16:53Z")
> [@Ithaka](#): > > And Susan doesn’t get into heaven because she wears make-up and is starting to like boys? > > Nice books Mr Lewis, but I think you went off the rails at the end. SPOILER ALERT!!! It’s not at all established that Susan isn’t alive. In fact, I think Lewis actually wrote a correspondent that Susan was alive & fallen away from the faith & still had a life to complete. The makeup & boys stuff was not Susan’s downfall but her superficiality & pseudo-maturity & sophistication which caused her to despise her childhood experiences & faith. There’s been some Narnia fanfic in which Susan finally comes back to Aslan. None I’m sure in which she goes into Aslan’s Shadow (Hell). Think of it as if Martha of Bethany had years later decide she had outgrown that silly Jesus guy she followed years before. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2005, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-chronicles-of-narnia-good-adult-read/288282/38 "2005-02-04T15:23:33Z")
> [@ShibbOleth](#): > > 1. Why is Aslan a lion and not a lamb? Would that have been too limiting, too obvious, or something else? I noticed recently a religious establishment near by my office with a name something like “Lion of Judah”, but I’m not familiar with that. > > 2. Any particular reason for all of the fauns, satyrs, dryads, hamadryads, Silenus and Bacchus, etc? It seems odd to have those characters there, especially as some more modern Christians might think of those as at least vaguely evil. 1)“Lion of Judah” is a title given to Christ in Revelation 4-5, and when Christ does appear it is as a Seven-horned Lamb. 1. Oh, there are a few hyper-fundies who regard them as evidence that Lewis was really an pagan/occultic infiltrator into C’nity. Lewis held that Paganism in its highest forms foreshadowed & were made complete in the coming of Jesus. I kinda think he may have actually believed in Elemental Beings which were neither human, angel or demon, but ultimately in need of submission to Christ. ---
**Author:** ![well\_he\_s\_back](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3ab097/32.png) [@well\_he\_s\_back](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/well_he_s_back)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2005, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-chronicles-of-narnia-good-adult-read/288282/39 "2005-02-04T15:26:02Z")
I have tried and tried, both as a child and an adult, and just could not get into these books. I thought The Magician’s Nephew was ok; it was the only one I could ever get all the way through. (This from someone who has read LOTR countless times. The other fantasy book I really like is The Last Unicorn). There’s just something about the children, or the vagueness of the setting, or the pervasiveness of the allegory - or, well, I don’t know. They just irritate and/or bore me. I didn’t get to the one with the ape character, but if it’s anti-Darwin that would bother me. A lot. So, like many books, you read it, form your own conclusion, then come back here and tell us. ---
**Author:** ![Ithaka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Ithaka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ithaka)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2005, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-chronicles-of-narnia-good-adult-read/288282/40 "2005-02-04T15:39:07Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > It’s not at all established that Susan isn’t alive. In fact, I think Lewis actually wrote a correspondent that Susan was alive & fallen away from the faith & still had a life to complete. The makeup & boys stuff was not Susan’s downfall but her superficiality & pseudo-maturity & sophistication which caused her to despise her childhood experiences & faith. There’s been some Narnia fanfic in which Susan > finally comes back to Aslan. None I’m sure in which she goes into Aslan’s Shadow (Hell). > > Think of it as if Martha of Bethany had years later decide she had outgrown that silly Jesus guy she followed years before. I don’t know - it sounds like justification to me. The overall impression I got (both as a child and an adult) was that Lewis was down on women, and down on Islam / other races. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-chronicles-of-narnia-good-adult-read/288282.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-chronicles-of-narnia-good-adult-read/288282.md?page=3)