# He\[, God,\] has the final say! \[Witnessing. ed. title\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 19, 2009, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-god-has-the-final-say-witnessing-ed-title/503506 "2009-07-19T03:24:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2009, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-god-has-the-final-say-witnessing-ed-title/503506/81 "2009-07-20T20:39:37Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > Uh. I think we’re saying the same thing. Incorrect. You were saying it the right way. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![EvilHamsterOnCrack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ab097/32.png) [@EvilHamsterOnCrack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EvilHamsterOnCrack)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2009, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-god-has-the-final-say-witnessing-ed-title/503506/82 "2009-07-20T21:57:33Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > A soft atheist simply lacks belief in the existence of any god. There is no requirement to say anything about the possibility of god existing. The two parts of your sentence are not equivalent. > A hard atheist actively believes that no god exists. There is no “without a doubt” implied, since that implies knowledge which is not what either hard or soft atheism is about. Since it is a statement of belief, evidence, such as it is, may or may not justify a belief, but someone is equally a hard atheist even if he has never considered the evidence. I stand corrected. I still however, am opposed to the rationale in **The Hamster King** ’s post that “If you don’t believe in god”, you are an atheist. You can be unsure if there is a god, and therefore, don’t believe in one. I can see where there would be an overlap between the idea of a soft-atheist and an agnostic, but I think an agnostic can still say “The earth is, I am, and that’s it”. He’s not believing in god, but he’s not denying it either. I feel like atheism, of any sort, implies the denial of the existance of god on some level, rather than simply ignoring that question altogether. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2009, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-god-has-the-final-say-witnessing-ed-title/503506/83 "2009-07-20T22:35:11Z")
> [@EvilHamsterOnCrack](#): > > I stand corrected. I still however, am opposed to the rationale in **The Hamster King** ’s post that “If you don’t believe in god”, you are an atheist. You can be unsure if there is a god, and therefore, don’t believe in one. I can see where there would be an overlap between the idea of a soft-atheist and an agnostic, but I think an agnostic can still say “The earth is, I am, and that’s it”. He’s not believing in god, but he’s not denying it either. I feel like atheism, of any sort, implies the denial of the existance of god on some level, rather than simply ignoring that question altogether. There are doubts and uncertainty on both sides. Plenty of believers admit to doubt, but still believe, and they are no less theists for it. It is just as valid as someone with no belief to wonder if they maybe shouldn’t believe a little bit. Still, either one believes or doesn’t, right? It is a pretty binary thing. I can see people flip-flopping from atheism to theism during a transition period, though. The agnostic who says what you quote him as saying certainly seems to be a soft atheist. You can not believe and still not deny. I don’t believe in the existence of aliens on Aldeberan IV, but I would hardly deny they exist. It is also not impossible to know if they exist - someday, if not now. It is possible to be an agnostic theist, saying that while one thinks it is impossible to know about god, you still believe in a god. Deists are agnostic theists by definition, since the deistic god does not involve himself in human affairs, and thus cannot be known. So agnosticism is orthogonal to theism. BTW thanks for being willing to reconsider. For years I considered myself a soft atheist only, until it finally dawned on me that I actually believed in no God, and the impossibility of proving the nonexistence of God had nothing to do with belief. All our beliefs should be provisional, after all. There are certain signs that might even convince me a god exists; but I’m not holding my breath. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-god-has-the-final-say-witnessing-ed-title/503506/84 "2009-07-21T00:27:45Z")
> [@Gbro](#): > > Hey I did forget to mention that the Sunday prior to the transplant my brother and his wife came to Church with me and we were all prayed for there in the service. Then our associate pastor and friend Rabbi Fred traveled the 200 miles to the hospital to lead our family’s in prayer and during my brothers recovery we had 24 hour prayer for 13 days in our prayer room for the 13 youth (2 were my Grandsons) 🙂 on a short term mission to Mexico. many prayed for my brothers recovery (100 % recovery) > We Prayed hard for this recovery. Today in church I told this same story, well I generalized a lot of details of course as almost all the parishioners know the story from prayer requests already. Something confuses me about your story, though obviously i’m very glad for you and your family from the stories you’ve told us. Anyway, my concern is this; it seems like you’re pointing out that prayer is important. That more prayer, or longer prayer, or more meaningful prayer, is better. And that others at your church too feel that prayer is something extremely valuable and full of worth. Here i’m going to make an assumption, so please tell me if i’m wrong; God is, generally, always willing to help. He’ll want to make the decision that aids you, if of course that decision is a moral one. He can, essentially, be counted upon pretty uniformly. The point i’d put to you is this; it seems to me that the vital point, the question on which the whole thing hinges, is not God’s decision, but whether people pray or not, and to what extent they pray. God’s decision can be assumed, but whether people pray or not cannot. So to me it seems like, by your stories, it’s people that have the final say, since it’s they who decide whether they want to pray or not. If they do, there will be success. If they don’t, there won’t be. That that’s the “final say” in the matter. How have I misunderstood your beliefs? ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-god-has-the-final-say-witnessing-ed-title/503506/85 "2009-07-21T01:01:59Z")
> [@Gbro](#): > > Read the Bible and those questions can be answered much better than I am able to explain. The reason you can’t point us in a specific direction is because YOU have never read the bible in its entirety. You are what I classify as a “cafeteria christian”. As in, “I’d like a slice of heaven, a large side of forgiveness, no Leviticus today, I need my shrimp cocktail, and I accept Jesus. Do you accept Visa?” I’ve read seven versions in their entirety. I know that god takes credit for the senseless killing of over 33 million in each version. He created the Ammonites in his own image, no? Then hi killed them. ALL of them. I’ve also learned god can’t handle iron chariots, so as far as powerful, he seems to rank up with dandelions. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-god-has-the-final-say-witnessing-ed-title/503506/86 "2009-07-21T01:06:29Z")
> [@Locrian](#): > > I’ve also learned god can’t handle iron chariots, so as far as powerful, he seems to rank up with dandelions. He’s clearly an elf, not a dandelion. Dandelions have no particular problem with iron. ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-god-has-the-final-say-witnessing-ed-title/503506/87 "2009-07-21T01:12:23Z")
And also for the hijack’s sake: There is NO belief in Atheism. There simply ARE no gods, ghosts, goblins, etc. There is PLENTY of belief with Agnostics. You might not believe in the popular god, but you think there’s a possibility. You believe in the same genre of a creator, and your belief may be undefined for now, but you still believe in… well, something. I will always consider Agnostics believers of a sort. ---
**Author:** ![Ruby\_G](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/94ad74/32.png) [@Ruby\_G](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruby_G)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-god-has-the-final-say-witnessing-ed-title/503506/88 "2009-07-21T01:24:02Z")
> [@ianzin](#): > > Just wondering if there is any difference between ‘witnessing’ and ‘delusional people spouting self-contradictory garbage about made up magical beings much as if helpful information about elementary thinking errors was not widely available’? > > If so, what is it? The distinction is in the post count. ---
**Author:** ![Gbro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Gbro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gbro)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-god-has-the-final-say-witnessing-ed-title/503506/89 "2009-07-21T01:25:24Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Gbro, you never answered my question. What is the point of being an EMT if God has the final say anyway? Please forgive me, I had intended to. I get tremendous satisfaction in helping those in need. I pray to my Savior to give me the ability to do my job to the best of my ability. My prayer group also prays for me to be able to do my duties with the skills the Lord has blessed me with. Now I am not in any way saying that I am any better than anyone else, it just a very personal thing that I have learned when I felt the Love of the Lord. Bad things happen and i have much empathy for those that that are hurting or sick. I do believe that that comes from the Lord. Bad things happen and I do not blame this on the Lord My God. This is the consequences of SIN! The evil one (devil) is also in charge. However he is not in charge of me. I pray the evil one is not in charge of you, as that is between you and God not me. I do not judge. Yes I have done just that many times in the past but I do know better now. I do hope I satisfied your question, Hey, I tried! It pains me to think God is to blame for the sins we have done through thought, word and or deed then blame God because we cannot understand him. I do not know the immensity of God and my guess would be that you don’t either. And I am not directing this at you msmith, but at everyone who has issues with God. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-god-has-the-final-say-witnessing-ed-title/503506/90 "2009-07-21T01:37:26Z")
> [@Gbro](#): > > Bad things happen and I do not blame this on the Lord My God. This is the consequences of SIN! Also known as blaming the victim. Bad things happen to people no matter how good and innocent they are. > [@Gbro](#): > > The evil one (devil) is also in charge. However he is not in charge of me. I pray the evil one is not in charge of you, as that is between you and God not me. I do not judge. Yes I have done just that many times in the past but I do know better now. Since you just said that bad things happen to people because of “SIN!”, you most certainly do judge. In fact, you just called your own brother evil, since something bad happened to him. And why do you call the Devil “the Evil One” ? From your description of God, God is quite evil. Perhaps the Devil got a bad rap ? Or perhaps you should call him “The Other Evil One” ? > [@Gbro](#): > > It pains me to think God is to blame for the sins we have done through thought, word and or deed then blame God because we cannot understand him. But you keep claiming things about God; apparently you DO think you can understand him. Of course, this is just the standard religious weaseling; God is only “beyond understanding” when it’s necessary to deflect criticism of him. > [@Gbro](#): > > I do not know the immensity of God and my guess would be that you don’t either. Since he doesn’t exist, no one does. ---
**Author:** ![Gbro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Gbro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gbro)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-god-has-the-final-say-witnessing-ed-title/503506/91 "2009-07-21T01:43:19Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > What did your brother do to piss off Big Juju In The Sky so badly that He/She/It fucked over your brother like that in the first place? Very elementary. He is a sinner. His ancestors sinned. We are all paying the price for sin. For if there was no sin in the world there would be no death. That is what Christianity is all about. Jesus Christ died to make atonement. Give Thanks to the Lord! ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-god-has-the-final-say-witnessing-ed-title/503506/92 "2009-07-21T01:49:58Z")
> [@Gbro](#): > > Very elementary. He is a sinner. His ancestors sinned. We are all paying the price for sin. > For if there was no sin in the world there would be no death. > That is what Christianity is all about. Jesus Christ died to make atonement. > > Give Thanks to the Lord! Give thanks for condemning me to death for something a mythical ancestor did ? Never. The God you describe is evil, and if he was anything but a delusion I’d be his enemy not a follower. And Jesus dying for atonement is an idea that simply makes no sense at all, as has often been pointed out on the board. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-god-has-the-final-say-witnessing-ed-title/503506/93 "2009-07-21T01:51:16Z")
> [@ianzin](#): > > Just wondering if there is any difference between ‘witnessing’ and ‘delusional people spouting self-contradictory garbage about made up magical beings much as if helpful information about elementary thinking errors was not widely available’? > > If so, what is it? Were, not was. Subjunctive mood. “…as if helpful information … \*were \*not widely available’” I mean, if we’re going to be all superior and everthang. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-god-has-the-final-say-witnessing-ed-title/503506/94 "2009-07-21T01:53:14Z")
> [@Gbro](#): > > Give Thanks to the Lord! No, in fact, I’d say your sociopath God should burn in hell and get fucked by Satan’s thorny dong. Give Praise to the Dong! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-god-has-the-final-say-witnessing-ed-title/503506/95 "2009-07-21T02:05:22Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > No, in fact, I’d say your sociopath God should burn in hell and get fucked by Satan’s thorny dong. > > Give Praise to the Dong! > > 😃 The guy’s an EMT. He saves lives. Show some fucking civility and respect. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-god-has-the-final-say-witnessing-ed-title/503506/96 "2009-07-21T02:09:26Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > The guy’s an EMT. He saves lives. Show some fucking civility and respect. I didn’t say anything about him. Is he God or the Devil? And in any case what does it matter what he does for a living? Are EMT’s automatically good people? I think I can safely show that they aren’t automatically rational. I’m sorry if my barb (heh) upset you. Please forgive me. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-god-has-the-final-say-witnessing-ed-title/503506/97 "2009-07-21T02:13:05Z")
> [@Gbro](#): > > Please forgive me, I had intended to. > > I get tremendous satisfaction in helping those in need. I pray to my Savior to give me the ability to do my job to the best of my ability. My prayer group also prays for me to be able to do my duties with the skills the Lord has blessed me with. > Now I am not in any way saying that I am any better than anyone else, it just a very personal thing that I have learned when I felt the Love of the Lord. > > Bad things happen and i have much empathy for those that that are hurting or sick. I do believe that that comes from the Lord. > > …I do hope I satisfied your question, Hey, I tried! I’m not sure it does. I guess my question is how do you know what is God’s will and when you are supposed to intervene using you EMT skills? > [@Gbro](#): > > Bad things happen and I do not blame this on the Lord My God. This is the consequences of SIN! The evil one (devil) is also in charge. However he is not in charge of me. I pray the evil one is not in charge of you, as that is between you and God not me. I do not judge. Yes I have done just that many times in the past but I do know better now. I don’t believe anyone is in charge of me other than me. For the most part I follow your standard Judeo-Christian ethic since that’s how I was raised, but I tend to base my decisions based on logic and reason and a desire to do what is right. I don’t find it useful to turn to any kind of mysticism because it is inconsistant, irrational and unhelpful. I can pray to the Lord to provide, but I still need to send out resumes if I want a job. But if you find your religeon provides you with a suitable moral framework for living your life, that’s fine by me. I don’t share the anti-theism bigotry many seem to have here on the SDMB. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-god-has-the-final-say-witnessing-ed-title/503506/98 "2009-07-21T02:14:31Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > BTW, I’ve read the entire Bible also, cover to cover. Every atheist should. Boring for the most part, but I did enjoy the naughty bits. You read the whole thing, cover to cover, just like **The Hamster King**? ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-god-has-the-final-say-witnessing-ed-title/503506/99 "2009-07-21T02:15:34Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > No, in fact, I’d say your sociopath God should burn in hell and get fucked by Satan’s thorny dong. > > Give Praise to the Dong! > > 😃 Does your mother know you’re on the computer this late? ---
**Author:** ![Gbro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Gbro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gbro)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-god-has-the-final-say-witnessing-ed-title/503506/100 "2009-07-21T02:18:48Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Something confuses me about your story, though obviously i’m very glad for you and your family from the stories you’ve told us. > > Anyway, my concern is this; it seems like you’re pointing out that prayer is important. That more prayer, or longer prayer, or more meaningful prayer, is better. And that others at your church too feel that prayer is something extremely valuable and full of worth. > > Here i’m going to make an assumption, so please tell me if i’m wrong; God is, generally, always willing to help. He’ll want to make the decision that aids you, if of course that decision is a moral one. He can, essentially, be counted upon pretty uniformly. > > The point i’d put to you is this; it seems to me that the vital point, the question on which the whole thing hinges, is not God’s decision, but whether people pray or not, and to what extent they pray. God’s decision can be assumed, but whether people pray or not cannot. To start with i had to do some Praying to even feel comfortable with answering your question. Last Sundays sermon was on the 1st Psalm. There could be some very close parallels with what the warnings in the 1st verse state. However I do know that some of the best disciples of Jesus were non-believers and with that fact I firmly believe that some of you that have no faith could have your eyes opened just like Paul. **That is the power of God also** , but if you do not care to believe that is also your choice. > [@](#): > > So to me it seems like, by your stories, it’s people that have the final say, since it’s they who decide whether they want to pray or not. If they do, there will be success. If they don’t, there won’t be. That that’s the “final say” in the matter. How have I misunderstood your beliefs? How is Praying for the healing of a sick person a final say, This is the way I pray. Father, I worship you, and Give you thanks for everything I am and have. Thank you for the gifts you have given me, I will try and glorify you in everything I do and say. Father my brother is sick and need help, the doctors are working as best they can, but this problem he has, is out of their ability. I do not know your ways Lord but we are praying that you will help the doctors heal my brother. Father I am a sinner and as hard as I try I still fall short. Please accept my confessions an help me be a better man. Lord there are so many that I work with and converse with that have no faith or are serving a false God. please have mercy on them. Lord I love you, please direct my life so that it can serve you. I pray this in the name of your Son, My savior, Jesus. Amen Not all prayers are answered, We have no control over that. Now I sure may be wrong but the thought I had when you referred to us having the final say it made me wonder if your idea of prayer was by making demands, and throwing temper tantrum like “our” children do. Please correct me if I am wrong. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-god-has-the-final-say-witnessing-ed-title/503506.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-god-has-the-final-say-witnessing-ed-title/503506.md?page=6)