# He\[, God,\] has the final say! \[Witnessing. ed. title\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 19, 2009, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-god-has-the-final-say-witnessing-ed-title/503506 "2009-07-19T03:24:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Captain\_Awesome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a698b9/32.png) [@Captain\_Awesome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Awesome)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-god-has-the-final-say-witnessing-ed-title/503506/121 "2009-07-21T13:58:11Z")
> [@Gbro](#): > > 1. We do not know the heart of that other. We pray for him/her. that is our part. > 2. No amount of praying seems to help. That is what we sense, **We do not know what the Lord has in store for any of us**. My prayers many times are for the family to find peace. How can we deal with the Evil, when a little girl is rapped and murdered. Why did that have to happen?. We have to believe that the victim is in a better place, a place where there is no more sin. A place where we will again be joined with them, a place we want to to go to. Faith in what Jesus has told us when said, > > > [@](#): > > > > “I Tell You The truth” (bolding mine) With respect, I would be grateful if you could offer some light on my previous questions, especially in view of your apparent belief in predestination. If God ‘knows’ what’s in store for us then clearly we cannot have free will, and individuals merely suffer according to ‘his’, apparently arbitrary, will. Your explanation for the hypothetical little girl does not explain why she had to suffer if God is ‘ultimately in charge’. You describe the ‘devil’ as also ‘in charge’ but presumably the Judeo-Christian assumption is that God takes precedence in terms of power. Your belief that she is now in a better place does not atone for the ‘evil’ done to her, and it is perfectly possible for someone to enter purgatory without such a violation, if God is the director of all things. By any humanistic system of morality it would not seem unreasonable, as **Lobohan** has done, to describe ‘his’ behaviour as sociopathic. If we assume that the little girl is ultimately innocent, given her hypothetical age, then presumably she is being punished, according to your previous comments, due to the sin of her ancestors. This is, without avoiding the non-falsifiable discussion of God’s existence, an illogical and ultimately immoral system of ethics. I do not understand why a person could justifiably support or worship the creator of such a mechanism, regardless of the lack of scientific or reliable documentary evidence. It is the failure of the internal moral logic of all religious systems, which I understand least about believers. You can migrate the goalposts to suit modern cosmology, biology, physics etc., or more commonly simply disregard them (à la child humming with fingers in ears), but the morality offered to us in religion breaks down under even the most cursory examination. I have yet to hear a coherent defence that can explain this, rather than deferring to a non-explanation. ---
**Author:** ![Gbro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Gbro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gbro)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-god-has-the-final-say-witnessing-ed-title/503506/122 "2009-07-21T14:02:22Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > I really don’t get the point of the green. > > And I wasn’t talking about a “study group”; I was talking about the various threads in which the subject came up, and the fundamental incoherence of the “Jesus died for our sins” idea has been discussed and rediscussed. To point out the most obvious flaw, Jesus didn’t have to die for God to forgive us ( for something _ **we** _ didn’t do, at that ); he could have just said “all’s forgiven, done !”. I was attempting to double quote you;) How well would we have remembered that our sins have been forgiven if God would have just proclaimed all sin is forgiven. How many times had the chosen people of God forgot what was handed to them and followed false gods? What would make me open my eye’s to how much God loves me(us) than to have his son die on a cross for sin’s he had not committed. How else could the grave have been conquered other than for a sinless being to be put there. The grave could not hold him because he had the chance to sin, was tempted and did not sin. I am sorry for you that you can’t see the tremendous love that came from the sacrifice. What would have given Abraham the faith he showed in Genesis chapter 22? He was willing to do whatever God asks of him. \*Of course one could say that there are many people today that kill their children and try and make some kind of defense such as this when they are truly sociopaths or mentally unstable. \* The crucifixion is fulfillment of scripture! ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-god-has-the-final-say-witnessing-ed-title/503506/123 "2009-07-21T14:22:18Z")
> [@Gbro](#): > > How well would we have remembered that our sins have been forgiven if God would have just proclaimed all sin is forgiven. So why didn’t he? He’s god, he can do whatever he wants. > [@](#): > > How many times had the chosen people of God forgot what was handed to them and followed false gods? How do you know you’re not following a false god? > [@](#): > > What would make me open my eye’s to how much God loves me(us) than to have his son die on a cross for sin’s he had not committed. > How else could the grave have been conquered other than for a sinless being to be put there. The grave could not hold him because he had the chance to sin, was tempted and did not sin. If that’s the case, it’s only because god wanted it that way. As god, he could easily have done it any other way. That he chose this way, that he chose to torture and kill himself, appears to indicate insanity. > [@](#): > > I am sorry for you that you can’t see the tremendous love that came from the sacrifice. What love? What sacrifice? God had himself tortured and killed to do something that required neither torture nor killing seeing as how it was god doing it. This isn’t love, it’s closer to insanity. > [@](#): > > What would have given Abraham the faith he showed in Genesis chapter 22? > He was willing to do whatever God asks of him. > \*Of course one could say that there are many people today that kill their children and try and make some kind of defense such as this when they are truly sociopaths or mentally unstable. \* And how do you separate the two? ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-god-has-the-final-say-witnessing-ed-title/503506/124 "2009-07-21T14:27:08Z")
For those keeping score at home, the tally of those in this thread who have read the entire bible----cover to cover------ includes: 1. Lobohan 2. The Hamster King 3. Voyager 4. Locrian (who certainly must win the moxy award) Ignore the obvious fact that not a one of them has shown evidence of such an accomplishment. Aren’t we overdue for a Mensa/ IQ thread? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-god-has-the-final-say-witnessing-ed-title/503506/125 "2009-07-21T14:33:20Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > For those keeping score at home, the tally of those in this thread who have read the entire bible----cover to cover------ includes: > > 1. Lobohan > 2. The Hamster King > 3. Voyager > 4. Locrian (who certainly must win the moxy award) > > Ignore the obvious fact that not a one of them has shown evidence of such an accomplishment. > > Aren’t we overdue for a Mensa/ IQ thread? I had a religion class in college. The amazing fact is that anyone has the nerve to call themselves a Christian, yet they are too lazy to read the bible themselves. I don’t know why you seem to think it is an amazing accomplishment. It’s just a boring book full of silly rules and weirdness. Why haven’t you read the bible? ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-god-has-the-final-say-witnessing-ed-title/503506/126 "2009-07-21T14:35:04Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > For those keeping score at home, the tally of those in this thread who have read the entire bible----cover to cover------ includes: > > 1. Lobohan > 2. The Hamster King > 3. Voyager > 4. Locrian (who certainly must win the moxy award) > > Ignore the obvious fact that not a one of them has shown evidence of such an accomplishment. > > Aren’t we overdue for a Mensa/ IQ thread? Neither have you… You would think that someone who claims to have read the bible, as thoroughly as you do, would have discarded it as the word of god looooong ago. Maybe you don’t get what it says? ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-god-has-the-final-say-witnessing-ed-title/503506/127 "2009-07-21T14:39:45Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > I had a religion class in college. The amazing fact is that anyone has the nerve to call themselves a Christian, yet they are too lazy to read the bible themselves. > > I don’t know why you seem to think it is an amazing accomplishment. It’s just a boring book full of silly rules and weirdness. Why haven’t you read the bible? I didn’t comment as to whether I’ve read the bible. At the pace the average adult reads, it would take 1 full year to read the entire bible, if they read 10 minutes a day Monday through Friday. What puzzles me, frankly, is that you are not the first (and sadly, won’t be the last) to say that you’ve read the entire bible and display so little (actually, _none_ is the correct word) evidence of it. Why do you suppose that is? ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-god-has-the-final-say-witnessing-ed-title/503506/128 "2009-07-21T14:42:27Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > Neither have you… > > You would think that someone who claims to have read the bible, as thoroughly as you do, would have discarded it as the word of god looooong ago. > > Maybe you don’t get what it says? I don’t believe I’ve ever claimed to have read the bible. Can you show me that? Have you read it? Shall I add your name to the list? **Locrian** has set the bar quite high. I remember someone claiming to have read it a few times. One poster claimed to have read the NT 8 times. But the entire bible in 7 different translations? That’s mighty impressive. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-god-has-the-final-say-witnessing-ed-title/503506/129 "2009-07-21T14:50:50Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > What puzzles me, frankly, is that you are not the first (and sadly, won’t be the last) to say that you’ve read the entire bible and display so little (actually, _none_ is the correct word) evidence of it. What is your thought process here? What would show you evidence that someone’s read the Bible cover to cover? How would someone show evidence of that? ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-god-has-the-final-say-witnessing-ed-title/503506/130 "2009-07-21T14:55:21Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > I don’t believe I’ve ever claimed to have read the bible. Can you show me that? By the way you are allways going on and on about how people haven’t read the entire bible, that being your particular schtick, I would have thought that, yes you did read the ENTIRE bible. Front to back and back again. You mean to say you didn’t??? ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-god-has-the-final-say-witnessing-ed-title/503506/131 "2009-07-21T14:58:10Z")
> [@Gbro](#): > > Again very elementary! > When the pager starts to vibrate. I always have it set to vibrate. (Don’t like beep’s)😉 > > Somehow you are trying to corner me with some judgmental thing. I’m not trying to corner you. I’m just trying to understand your beliefs. I think that would be a waste of time anyway. Most of the people here think that if they someone corner you by using logic to pick apart your belief system like nerds picking apart the plot holes in a Michael Bay film, you will have some epiphany or something. Of course that won’t happen. You believe what you believe and no one on some messageboard is going to disuade you of that. All I’ll say is that I always get concerned when I meet someone who mindlessly follows some belief system to the point where they can’t objectively question it. > [@Gbro](#): > > Wouldn’t the bigger question be to her, “What if she is wrong” [about there being no God]? Then I would hope God would judge her based on how she lived her life and not how well she mindlessly conformed to some religeous dogma. Otherwise such a God is not deserving of worship. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-god-has-the-final-say-witnessing-ed-title/503506/132 "2009-07-21T15:07:03Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > I didn’t comment as to whether I’ve read the bible. > > At the pace the average adult reads, it would take 1 full year to read the entire bible, if they read 10 minutes a day Monday through Friday. > > What puzzles me, frankly, is that you are not the first (and sadly, won’t be the last) to say that you’ve read the entire bible and display so little (actually, _none_ is the correct word) evidence of it. > > Why do you suppose that is? It can be done in a semester if you actually read it. It’s not that long. They say the bible can be read aloud in 70 hours. Let’s say that it takes 35 hours to read it. That a Christian can’t spare an hour a day for a month to read something he’s assuming is his God’s inspired word can only be attributed to laziness or stupidity. For fuck sake, highlight the parts you don’t understand and ask your preacher about them! As for displaying evidence for reading it… I’m an atheist. Any rational person who reads the bible would be. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-god-has-the-final-say-witnessing-ed-title/503506/133 "2009-07-21T15:08:11Z")
Not much substantive to add as the OP and his ilk obviously have their shields set sufficiently high to deflect any rational thought. But I have a bit of an issue with what seem to be the kneejerk expressions of folk being “happy” for **Gbro** and his brother. Yes, to some extent ths is merely a convention of politeness. But we’ve got no idea who **Gbro’s** brother is. For all we know he could be the nastiest child molesting, wife beating piece of shit alive, without whom the world would be better off. Moreover, his “miraculous” recovery has apparently provided further “proof” for the OP to continue in and try to spread his delusion. Whereas maybe a little more undeserved suffering that hit close to home might have caused a couple of the OP’s braincells to rub together and start to question whether a supreme being exists or, if he does, if he is benevolent. Hell, I don’t know **Gbro** or his brother. Tho as a general rule I don’t really wish anything bad to happen to anyone, I really don’t care what happens to someone hundreds of miles away from me whom I’ve never met or heard about. Nor do I think most of you ought to care about me or mine. Of course, if the brother had cacked, we _would_ have been saved from one more BS witnessing thread. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-god-has-the-final-say-witnessing-ed-title/503506/134 "2009-07-21T15:11:55Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > It can be done in a semester if you actually read it. It’s not that long. They say the bible can be read aloud in 70 hours. Let’s say that it takes 35 hours to read it. That a Christian can’t spare an hour a day for a month to read something he’s assuming is his God’s inspired word can only be attributed to laziness or stupidity. > > For fuck sake, highlight the parts you don’t understand and ask your preacher about them! > > As for displaying evidence for reading it… I’m an atheist. Any rational person who reads the bible would be. 😃 Do you know what your IQ is? Would you share it with us? ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-god-has-the-final-say-witnessing-ed-title/503506/135 "2009-07-21T15:21:52Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > What is your thought process here? What would show you evidence that someone’s read the Bible cover to cover? How would someone show evidence of that? There was a time-------when I was young and doe eyed and impressionable----that I would see claims like the one being bandied about and think, “Whoa, this place has some really bright people.” But I found there is no faster way to induce internet amnesia than to engage them. Look, \*\*Gbro \*\*is making some claims. If I was inclined to lay siege to his witnessing------and I had read the bible _cover to cover_ 7 times---- I’d be using his own bible to engage him. But I can’t tell you how many times now I’ve seen posters attacking Christians and make comments like “I’ve read the bible” only to find that they not only didn’t use the bible in a bible discussion, but got cold feet when challenged. A knowledgeable poster should be able to debate **Gbro** right here, right now \*on **Gbro** ’s terms. \* Telling me you’ve read the bible, and showing me you’ve read the bible are 2 different things. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-god-has-the-final-say-witnessing-ed-title/503506/136 "2009-07-21T15:25:21Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > Do you know what your IQ is? > > Would you share it with us? Eleventy Billion! What do you think an IQ pissing contest would gain us? Smart people can still do stupid things after all. I think it’s more of an indictment of your standards that you think reading a 800,000 word book that’s made out of snippits is a major accomplishment. The Stand has almost 500,000 words for fuck sake. ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-god-has-the-final-say-witnessing-ed-title/503506/137 "2009-07-21T15:26:49Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > For those keeping score at home, the tally of those in this thread who have read the entire bible----cover to cover------ includes: > > 1. Lobohan > 2. The Hamster King > 3. Voyager > 4. Locrian (who certainly must win the moxy award) I’ve read the bible from cover to cover. You want evidence? _I’m now an atheist._ There’s your evidence. > [@](#): > > Ignore the obvious fact that not a one of them has shown evidence of such an accomplishment. What would you accept as evidence for reading a book? You seem to be looking for something specific. > [@](#): > > Aren’t we overdue for a Mensa/ IQ thread? What does this have to do with reading the bible? Or with what this thread is about? Now that people have laughed at your ‘logic & reason is witnessing!’ bullplop, you’ve just found another way to avoid talking about the OP. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-god-has-the-final-say-witnessing-ed-title/503506/138 "2009-07-21T15:28:11Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > By the way you are allways going on and on about how people haven’t read the entire bible, that being your particular schtick, I would have thought that, yes you did read the ENTIRE bible. > Front to back and back again. > > You mean to say you didn’t??? It would appear that you’re familiar with some of my posts on this topic. I have zero interest in witnessing to this crowd, and while I respect those who do, my interest is in representing the bible accurately. IOW, I’m more interested in the accuracy of the texts, the accuracy of the history and so on. So, I’m less interested in how someone should view homosexuality than I am in what the bible actually says on the subject; I’m less interested in whether someone worships Jesus as the capital G God than I am in what the bible says (or in this case, doesn’t say) about the Trinity; I’m less interested in how someone sees Hell in their faith than I am in what the history and use of the words in the original texts were, including how the biblical characters saw Hell. In the end, I think it is only for internet chest pounding that claims like “I’ve read the entire bible” (7 times!) are made. It has been my experience that there has almost always been a huge divide between the claim and the performance. If you’ve read the bible and have the temerity to wade into a GD discussion, your working knowledge should be manifest; it should be _obvious_, and so the claim “I’ve read the entire bible!” is unnecessary. Unless you haven’t. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-god-has-the-final-say-witnessing-ed-title/503506/139 "2009-07-21T15:30:23Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > For those keeping score at home, the tally of those in this thread who have read the entire bible----cover to cover------ includes: > > 1. Lobohan > 2. The Hamster King > 3. Voyager > 4. Locrian (who certainly must win the moxy award) > 5. hotflungwok > > Ignore the obvious fact that not a one of them has shown evidence of such an accomplishment. > > Aren’t we overdue for a Mensa/ IQ thread? Updated. This is certainly an impressive accomplishment. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-god-has-the-final-say-witnessing-ed-title/503506/140 "2009-07-21T15:37:43Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Eleventy Billion! What do you think an IQ pissing contest would gain us? Smart people can still do stupid things after all. See now I would have guessed 154. I would also guess that your friends encouraged you to join Mensa, but you were ambivalent. The meetings were fine and all, but you simply didn’t have that much interest. I would have also guessed that you find those tests to be somewhat arbitrary and oblique, and perhaps with a slight cultural bias. But what do I know? > [@](#): > > I think it’s more of an indictment of your standards that you think reading a 800,000 word book that’s made out of snippits is a major accomplishment. The Stand has almost 500,000 words for fuck sake. Are you as reticent about talking about The Stand, or do you find it sufficient to simply claim to have read it? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-god-has-the-final-say-witnessing-ed-title/503506.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-god-has-the-final-say-witnessing-ed-title/503506.md?page=8)