# He\[, God,\] has the final say! \[Witnessing. ed. title\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 19, 2009, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-god-has-the-final-say-witnessing-ed-title/503506 "2009-07-19T03:24:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-god-has-the-final-say-witnessing-ed-title/503506/141 "2009-07-21T15:38:22Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > Updated. > > This is certainly an impressive accomplishment. It’s a Miracle! I’m blown away by the mere idea that reading is somehow an impressive accomplishment. How about a list of those who have read War and Peace? Would that be impressive? Is reading Atlas Shrugged now a criterion for Mensa membership? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-god-has-the-final-say-witnessing-ed-title/503506/142 "2009-07-21T15:39:26Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > It would appear that you’re familiar with some of my posts on this topic. > > I have zero interest in witnessing to this crowd, and while I respect those who do, my interest is in representing the bible accurately. IOW, I’m more interested in the accuracy of the texts, the accuracy of the history and so on. > > So, I’m less interested in how someone should view homosexuality than I am in what the bible actually says on the subject; I’m less interested in whether someone worships Jesus as the capital G God than I am in what the bible says (or in this case, doesn’t say) about the Trinity; I’m less interested in how someone sees Hell in their faith than I am in what the history and use of the words in the original texts were, including how the biblical characters saw Hell. > > In the end, I think it is only for internet chest pounding that claims like “I’ve read the entire bible” (7 times!) are made. It has been my experience that there has almost always been a huge divide between the claim and the performance. > > If you’ve read the bible and have the temerity to wade into a GD discussion, your working knowledge should be manifest; it should be _obvious_, and so the claim “I’ve read the entire bible!” is unnecessary. > > Unless you haven’t. That’s just stupidity. I’ve read The Stand. It was over ten years ago and I don’t think I can name a single character’s first and last name other than Randall Flag. I know it was a fine book, because it engaged me and I remember the emotional rush. I read the bible over ten years ago. You’re assuming I memorized it? No one is claiming to be a biblical scholar here. I imagine that after a single reading one would still have to look up references. You are assuming that after one reading someone will have an encyclopedic knowledge of the primitive, contradictory and utterly boring drivel in that book? Your whole thesis is laughably ignorant. :rolleyes: In any case, the fact that any “Christian” would claim to be one without reading the bible means they are either, lazy, too stupid / uneducated to read it, or in the process of reading it. Which doesn’t surprise me, Christianity is very attractive to intellectually dull people. It gives answers without having to back them up. The OP said he doesn’t question his faith for fuck sake. How much more proof do you need that said faith is a shallow one? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-god-has-the-final-say-witnessing-ed-title/503506/143 "2009-07-21T15:41:26Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Is reading Atlas Shrugged now a criterion for Mensa membership? Nah. Anyone with the IQ to qualify for MENSA should be able to recognize egregious objectivist porn before the first ten pages are through…and throw the book away. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-god-has-the-final-say-witnessing-ed-title/503506/144 "2009-07-21T15:44:15Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > It’s a Miracle! > > I’m blown away by the mere idea that reading is somehow an impressive accomplishment. How about a list of those who have read War and Peace? Would that be impressive? Is reading Atlas Shrugged now a criterion for Mensa membership? Well, if you’re in a Tolstoy thread and the only thing you can say is “I’ve read the book 7 times!” you’re bound to get a few :dubious::dubious::dubious: Are you asking about RL Mensa? Because I don’t know. For the internet MB version, one need only claim to have read it. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-god-has-the-final-say-witnessing-ed-title/503506/145 "2009-07-21T15:44:41Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > See now I would have guessed 154. > > I would also guess that your friends encouraged you to join Mensa, but you were ambivalent. The meetings were fine and all, but you simply didn’t have that much interest. > > I would have also guessed that you find those tests to be somewhat arbitrary and oblique, and perhaps with a slight cultural bias. > > But what do I know? I think you’re projecting. > [@](#): > > Are you as reticent about talking about The Stand, or do you find it sufficient to simply claim to have read it? Again, your arguments sink to the level of childishness. You appear to have this thesis saved and want to whip it out to show it off… but why? What do you expect someone who has read the bible to say? Do you expect a level of reverence? It’s a stupid and childish book written by primitives who likely smelled like shit. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-god-has-the-final-say-witnessing-ed-title/503506/146 "2009-07-21T15:49:46Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > That’s just stupidity. I’ve read The Stand. It was over ten years ago and I don’t think I can name a single character’s first and last name other than Randall Flag. I know it was a fine book, because it engaged me and I remember the emotional rush. > > I read the bible over ten years ago. You’re assuming I memorized it? No one is claiming to be a biblical scholar here. I imagine that after a single reading one would still have to look up references. You are assuming that after one reading someone will have an encyclopedic knowledge of the primitive, contradictory and utterly boring drivel in that book? > > Your whole thesis is laughably ignorant. :rolleyes: You know, I don’t have the time to go look them up, but it has been a STANDARD for qualifiers like this to come, although yours is admittedly earlier than usual. Usually, it’s only after being challenged that people start the “I took it in college 10 years ago as part of a class and I don’t claim to remember every detail” stuff comes rolling off of keyboards. I wasn’t going to ask you to show us your mettle. Your secret was good with me. But now that you’ve let the cat out of the virtual bag about both the Bible and The Stand, I must ask, If you read it 10 years ago and have no working knowledge about it now, why make the claim? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-god-has-the-final-say-witnessing-ed-title/503506/147 "2009-07-21T15:53:37Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > Well, if you’re in a Tolstoy thread and the only thing you can say is “I’ve read the book 7 times!” you’re bound to get a few :dubious::dubious::dubious: I don’t see anyone here who has said nothing but “I’ve read the bible.” I see someone having a conniption at the idea that anyone has read the bible, which I find an astounding thing. > [@](#): > > Are you asking about RL Mensa? Because I don’t know. I was being sarcastic. I’m 98% sure that none of Ayn Rand’s work are used to assess qualifications for membership in Mensa. > [@](#): > > For the internet MB version, one need only claim to have read it. Sure, and since it really isn’t that outrageous of a claim, going on about it ad naseum makes one look silly. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-god-has-the-final-say-witnessing-ed-title/503506/148 "2009-07-21T15:56:48Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > I think you’re projecting. That’s _exactly_ what I’m doing. > [@](#): > > Again, your arguments sink to the level of childishness. You appear to have this thesis saved and want to whip it out to show it off… but why? What do you expect someone who has read the bible to say? Do you expect a level of reverence? It’s a stupid and childish book written by primitives who likely smelled like shit. I would expect that someone who _ **knows** _ the bible who is in a debate with a doe eyed, mouth breathing, bronze age sheep herding mentality Christian to whip up on them with their own bible! That’s what I expect! (that doesn’t include wiki or googled up hyperlinks) Not a bunch of juvenile comments why they can’t, or won’t. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-god-has-the-final-say-witnessing-ed-title/503506/149 "2009-07-21T15:59:39Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > …snip…I was being sarcastic. …snip… And I wasn’t? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Awesome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a698b9/32.png) [@Captain\_Awesome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Awesome)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-god-has-the-final-say-witnessing-ed-title/503506/150 "2009-07-21T16:00:49Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Most of the people here think that if they someone corner you by using logic to pick apart your belief system like nerds picking apart the plot holes in a Michael Bay film, you will have some epiphany or something. I’m not suggesting this will happen if **Gbro** , or any of the other believers responding here, actually addressed any of the points I have raised (my ‘keeping score’ = none). I am simply trying to understand whether they have some coherent understanding of the ethical system in place, that they can explain, or simply refuse to acknowledge the apparent inherent illogical and amoral elements devised by God, or as appears to be the case, avoid the question entirely. People who ignore logic cannot be expected to have an ‘epiphany’ in the face of logic, since clearly this would itself be illogical. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-god-has-the-final-say-witnessing-ed-title/503506/151 "2009-07-21T16:01:17Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > You know, I don’t have the time to go look them up, but it has been a STANDARD for qualifiers like this to come, although yours is admittedly earlier than usual. > > Usually, it’s only after being challenged that people start the “I took it in college 10 years ago as part of a class and I don’t claim to remember every detail” stuff comes rolling off of keyboards. > > I wasn’t going to ask you to show us your mettle. Your secret was good with me. > > But now that you’ve let the cat out of the virtual bag about both the Bible and The Stand, I must ask, If you read it 10 years ago and have no working knowledge about it now, why make the claim? You are backpedaling. Perhaps because I’ve just shown your whole construction to be downright silly. I made the claim that I read the bible because I read it. I didn’t make the claim that I was a bible scholar. I certainly have more knowledge of the bible than the OP, considering he’s too lazy, uneducated or uninterested to hear first hand the words of his God. You are on a losing proposition here. And while it’s funny, it is getting tiring. You think reading a long book is an impossible task. That means you have very low standards for accomplishment. I’m sorry that I have to wow you. Mostly because it’s indicative of how utterly banal your existence must be. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-god-has-the-final-say-witnessing-ed-title/503506/152 "2009-07-21T16:14:48Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > You are backpedaling. Perhaps because I’ve just shown your whole construction to be downright silly. > > I made the claim that I read the bible because I read it. I didn’t make the claim that I was a bible scholar. I certainly have more knowledge of the bible than the OP, considering he’s too lazy, uneducated or uninterested to hear first hand the words of his God. > > You are on a losing proposition here. And while it’s funny, it is getting tiring. > > You think reading a long book is an impossible task. That means you have very low standards for accomplishment. I’m sorry that I have to wow you. Mostly because it’s indicative of how utterly banal your existence must be. Backpedaling? How? Do to want to me to go find some of the same kind of “I took it in college” kind of comments like yours? (Interestingly enough, the “I don’t claim to be scholar” is a familiar one, as if asking someone to show a working knowledge is tantamount to being a scholar) I didn’t ask you to be a scholar. In fact, I didn’t even ask you to show a working knowledge of the bible, although we were heading in that direction. (and it’s clear that you’re now letting me know you don’t have that; but that you read it 10 years ago and don’t remember any of it) So don’t sweat it. No need to wow me. I will gladly settle for showing me you "_certainly have more knowledge of the bible than the OP."_ (your exact words.) Show me that and all is forgiven, k? ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-god-has-the-final-say-witnessing-ed-title/503506/153 "2009-07-21T16:19:38Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > What are you 90? It’s like 7:16 on the west coast. 78 > [@](#): > > And my mother is presumably at her house, unaware of the sordid details of my computer usage. Perhaps it’s time for an intervention of sorts. > [@](#): > > How are your parents? Dead, but thanks for asking. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-god-has-the-final-say-witnessing-ed-title/503506/154 "2009-07-21T16:24:46Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > Backpedaling? How? You disbelieve that people have read the bible. Because you seem to think it’s impossible. Now you are assuming “read the bible” equals “able to whip out chapter and verse without research.” That is a stupid thing to suggest. > [@](#): > > Do to want to me to go find some of the same kind of “I took it in college” kind of comments like yours? (Interestingly enough, the “I don’t claim to be scholar” is a familiar one, as if asking someone to show a working knowledge is tantamount to being a scholar) Why would I want you to find some other comments similar to mine? What would that prove? > [@](#): > > I didn’t ask you to be a scholar. In fact, I didn’t even ask you to show a working knowledge of the bible, although we were heading in that direction. (and it’s clear that you’re now letting me know you don’t have that; but that you read it 10 years ago and don’t remember any of it) It’s not that I don’t remember any of it. I would have to look it up to find a correct cite. You’re the one rapidly moving the goal posts because you are being challenged. > [@](#): > > So don’t sweat it. No need to wow me. Evidently, I already have… because I read a long book! 😃 > [@](#): > > I will gladly settle for showing me you "_certainly have more knowledge of the bible than the OP."_ (your exact words.) In what manner? The OP’s posts are gibberish. You want me to show cites from the bible that disprove his views? That’s the ultimate stupidity of your thesis here. You don’t need to cite the bible to show it to be silly. Logic shows it to be silly. > [@](#): > > Show me that and all is forgiven, k? I don’t want your forgiveness. You obviously don’t care about rational debate, you want to whip out your pet thesis that no one has ever read the bible. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-god-has-the-final-say-witnessing-ed-title/503506/155 "2009-07-21T16:25:08Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > Ignore the obvious fact that not a one of them has shown evidence of such an accomplishment. What would you consider evidence? I don’t know why you care. You’re not even taking part in the discussion. You’re just sitting on the sidelines making snarky remarks. If I’m a liar and a complete Biblical illiterate, go ahead, make a fool of me! Use your superior scriptural knowledge to demolish me! You’ve clearly read the Bible cover-to-cover many times, so clearly you should be able to run circles around a poor deluded atheist like me who only read it once over a summer long ago. Show me how wrong and misguided I am! School me! ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-god-has-the-final-say-witnessing-ed-title/503506/156 "2009-07-21T16:38:05Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > What would you consider evidence? > > I don’t know why you care. You’re not even taking part in the discussion. You’re just sitting on the sidelines making snarky remarks. > > If I’m a liar and a complete Biblical illiterate, go ahead, make a fool of me! Use your superior scriptural knowledge to demolish me! You’ve clearly read the Bible cover-to-cover many times, so clearly you should be able to run circles around a poor deluded atheist like me who only read it once over a summer long ago. Show me how wrong and misguided I am! School me! **read it once over a summer long ago.** I have no desire or ability to make a fool of you. But you and your comrades are engaged in a little exercise that is an all too familiar one here; one in which a gang mentality and atmosphere prevails. You aren’t the first as part of this nonsense to make outrageous claims, or claims of knowledge you simply don’t have. I have watched more than a few become disoriented and upset and leave. I hope that **Gbro** keeps his head about him. I’m simply picking a couple of you off his back so you can turn your attention to me and I can can question you about this knowledage you have. Which in your case and **Lobohan** appears to be a long time ago (if at all; let the reader use discernment) and is just a bunch of internet bluster. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-god-has-the-final-say-witnessing-ed-title/503506/157 "2009-07-21T16:42:07Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > You disbelieve that people have read the bible. Because you seem to think it’s impossible. Now you are assuming “read the bible” equals “able to whip out chapter and verse without research.” That is a stupid thing to suggest. > > Why would I want you to find some other comments similar to mine? What would that prove? > > It’s not that I don’t remember any of it. I would have to look it up to find a correct cite. You’re the one rapidly moving the goal posts because you are being challenged. > > Evidently, I already have… because I read a long book! 😃 > > In what manner? The OP’s posts are gibberish. You want me to show cites from the bible that disprove his views? That’s the ultimate stupidity of your thesis here. You don’t need to cite the bible to show it to be silly. Logic shows it to be silly. > > I don’t want your forgiveness. You obviously don’t care about rational debate, you want to whip out your pet thesis that no one has ever read the bible. Yes it is tiring. I appreciate that you were/are honest enough to admit you read it a long time ago (and given that you have shown no working knowledge must remain questionable) and that your memory is uncertain. I’m good with all of that. It simply puts your comment “I’ve read the bible” in a different context; one that is likely closer to the real truth. It just looks a lot less formidable, though, doesn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-god-has-the-final-say-witnessing-ed-title/503506/158 "2009-07-21T16:45:42Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > **read it once over a summer long ago.** > > I have no desire or ability to make a fool of you. But you and your comrades are engaged in a little exercise that is an all too familiar one here; one in which a gang mentality and atmosphere prevails. > > You aren’t the first as part of this nonsense to make outrageous claims, or claims of knowledge you simply don’t have. I have watched more than a few become disoriented and upset and leave. I hope that **Gbro** keeps his head about him. > > I’m simply picking a couple of you off his back so you can turn your attention to me and I can can question you about this knowledage you have. > > Which in your case and **Lobohan** appears to be a long time ago (if at all; let the reader use discernment) and is just a bunch of internet bluster. Again, one has to ask what do you think is an appropriate use of having read the bible in this debate? Your thesis is silly. I’ve read the bible. Cover to cover. It was in college. I didn’t memorize it. I would have to look up a passage to get it correct. I don’t understand what you think a dismissal of the OP’s gibberish should look like from someone who read the bible versus someone who did not. To reiterate, you are contributing nothing to the discussion, you’re simply trying to catch those silly atheists in a lie. Oh noes!!1 ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-god-has-the-final-say-witnessing-ed-title/503506/159 "2009-07-21T16:47:38Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > Yes it is tiring. I can keep this up all day, old man! 😃 > [@](#): > > I appreciate that you were/are honest enough to admit you read it a long time ago (and given that you have shown no working knowledge must remain questionable) and that your memory is uncertain. Again, what do you think a working knowledge would look like to dismiss the OP’s childish posts? > [@](#): > > I’m good with all of that. It simply puts your comment “I’ve read the bible” in a different context; one that is likely closer to the real truth. > > It just looks a lot less formidable, though, doesn’t it? There’s the backpedaling I was talking about. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-god-has-the-final-say-witnessing-ed-title/503506/160 "2009-07-21T16:49:27Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > I’m simply picking a couple of you off his back so you can turn your attention to me and I can can question you about this knowledage you have. Then perhaps you’ll care to answer the original question I asked \*\*Gbro \*\*when I mentioned having read the Bible: Does God give preferential treatment to those who pray to Him? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-god-has-the-final-say-witnessing-ed-title/503506.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-god-has-the-final-say-witnessing-ed-title/503506.md?page=9)