# He\[, God,\] has the final say! \[Witnessing. ed. title\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 19, 2009, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-god-has-the-final-say-witnessing-ed-title/503506 "2009-07-19T03:24:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-god-has-the-final-say-witnessing-ed-title/503506/161 "2009-07-21T16:54:04Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Again, one has to ask what do you think is an appropriate use of having read the bible in this debate? Your thesis is silly. > > I’ve read the bible. Cover to cover. It was in college. I didn’t memorize it. I would have to look up a passage to get it correct. I don’t understand what you think a dismissal of the OP’s gibberish should look like from someone who read the bible versus someone who did not. > > To reiterate, you are contributing nothing to the discussion, you’re simply trying to catch those silly atheists in a lie. Oh noes!!1 I didn’t comment as to whether I think you’re lying. You made a claim of having read the bible cover to cover. That interested me enough that I wanted to know more. You’ve shared some information, that puts your claim in a completely different context. Whether that represents the whole truth or not is not for me to say. I just think if I read the bible 10 years ago and remember little of it I wouldn’t be making the comment “I’ve read the bible.” ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-god-has-the-final-say-witnessing-ed-title/503506/162 "2009-07-21T16:58:14Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Again, what do you think a working knowledge would look like to dismiss the OP’s childish posts? You’d be using the bible, not simply claiming to have read it. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-god-has-the-final-say-witnessing-ed-title/503506/163 "2009-07-21T17:00:16Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > I didn’t comment as to whether I think you’re lying. > > You made a claim of having read the bible cover to cover. > > That interested me enough that I wanted to know more. > > You’ve shared some information, that puts your claim in a completely different context. > > Whether that represents the whole truth or not is not for me to say. > > I just think if I read the bible 10 years ago and remember little of it I wouldn’t be making the comment “I’ve read the bible.” I would say I remember the salient points. But you are assuming that anyone who says, “I have read the bible” is able to quote chapter and verse by memory. That isn’t what “I have read the bible” means. That’s what, “I am a bible scholar.” means. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-god-has-the-final-say-witnessing-ed-title/503506/164 "2009-07-21T17:04:11Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > You’d be using the bible, not simply claiming to have read it. In what manner would you suggest using the bible to show that this: > [@](#): > > 8 years ago my older brother having a long HX of hypertension lost his ability to void urine. After many tests and consultations with Urologist’s he ended up self catheterizing. > 5 year later his kidneys had failed to the point he required hemodialysis. > 4 years later struggling to become a candidate for a transplant he had to have both his kidneys removed. Cancer was found in one and both were severely diseased. > After a year of hemodialysis w/o kidneys and still working a 40 hr. job in the iron ore mines he was cleared to have a transplant. I had been waiting for the day I could donate one of my kidneys to my brother and on May 5, 2009 the transplant was done Laparoscopicly for both of us. > After the transplant my brother was plagued with bladder infections from constant foley catheter usage as he was still unable to void. On top of that he also so scared from self cathing that he has what is termed a false passage making it very difficult to imposable to self cath, and making it nessesary to advance a guide with a scope to place a catheter. > About 2 weeks ago a procedure was done, I am told a reaming of his prostate gland to allow him to place a catheter. After the procedure Alas he could void, however he couldn’t hold anything. The catheter he then used would not seal and he would now have to wear a depends and catheter. > He was finally able to return home last night being in and out pt. for the last 2 1/2 months.(he had to stay within walking distance of Henipin Co. Med Center). > He was given a small supply of catheters and told that he would have to cath for the rest of his life. (that was yesterday) > Today his urinary system is working just like our creator designed it to work. He is catheter free! > We have to give thanks to all the medical professionals, but at the same time know that we know that the Lord is ultimately in charge. > He has the Final Say! > > Praise the Lord! > Greg Is illogical gibberish? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-god-has-the-final-say-witnessing-ed-title/503506/165 "2009-07-21T17:04:55Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > You’d be using the bible, not simply claiming to have read it. That’s not a useful line of attack. Say someone was posting that he really had Force powers ala Star Wars. One way to engage with him would be to talk about how his putative Force powers line up with the Force powers describe in Lucas’ canon. But that’s pointless. It doesn’t get at the core question at hand. A more fruitful approach is to point out that Force powers are make-believe and don’t actually exist. I’m not sure why you’re insisting that we must do the former. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Awesome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a698b9/32.png) [@Captain\_Awesome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Awesome)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-god-has-the-final-say-witnessing-ed-title/503506/166 "2009-07-21T17:13:53Z")
**raindog** since you have so far failed to address the theological problems I have outlined without referencing scripture directly, maybe you could consider 2 Thessalonians 2:8-17, > [@](#): > > 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: (_yummy wicked humans!_) > 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of **Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders** , (_clearly I was wrong in my earlier assumption that God is more powerful than Satan_) > 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. > 11 And for this cause **God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie** : > 12 **That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.** (_so God’s deluding me and punishing me? ‘Praise the Lord’_) > 13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because **God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth** : (_Guess I wasn’t picked for the team, seems unfair doesn’t it?_) > 14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. > 15Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle. > 16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, **and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace** , (_consolation and love for the chosen ones, less so for the deluded unbelievers_) > 17 Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work. (_bracketed comments_ and **bolding** mine) Can your knowledge of scripture help me out of this apparent absurdity, of God being ‘ultimately in charge’ of our destiny? ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-god-has-the-final-say-witnessing-ed-title/503506/167 "2009-07-21T17:14:46Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > Then perhaps you’ll care to answer the original question I asked \*\*Gbro \*\*when I mentioned having read the Bible: > > Does God give preferential treatment to those who pray to Him? Well, I can tell you some texts that speak to prayer, and what some of them have to say about the effect of prayer, including how God views prayer. But surely you know these texts, right? Now whether these texts are valid is a different topic altogether and if most vigorously debated must end up in a stalemate, for they will remain a subjective assessment. In effect, you and I would end up witnessing to each other. Because I _know_ that these can only end in a stalemate I have always considered a victory if my opponent believes that anything but a stalemate can be had. I have a lot on my mind right now, and so I’m not intersted in hearing you witness. OTOH, if you want to show me your working knowledge about what the bible says about prayer, (and I’ll show you mine) I’d be pleased to play. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-god-has-the-final-say-witnessing-ed-title/503506/168 "2009-07-21T17:18:28Z")
> [@Captain\_Awesome](#): > > **raindog** since you have so far failed to address the theological problems I have outlined without referencing scripture directly, maybe you could consider 2 Thessalonians 2:8-17, > > (_bracketed comments_ and **bolding** mine) > > Can your knowledge of scripture help me out of this apparent absurdity, of God being ‘ultimately in charge’ of our destiny? _I’d be pleased to!_ If you want to discuss what the texts say, I’m game. If you want to witness to me-----to share your subjective beliefs with me------- than I have to pass. ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-god-has-the-final-say-witnessing-ed-title/503506/169 "2009-07-21T17:21:33Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > I have no desire or ability to make a fool of you. It’s too bad I’m not allowed to call you a liar on this board, because I’d really like to. This is pretty much _all_ you’ve done in the past few threads. You jump in to make a few snide comments designed deliberately to incite at those you direct them against. Then when your first one liner (using logic and reason is witnessing) doesn’t get enough attention, you try to go deeper and more personal. You start throwing out seemingly innocent accusations of people exaggerating their qualifications, dishonestly using one indicator (having read the bible) in place of what you were really talking about (being an expert on the bible). All you’re doing is mucking up the thread with childish accusations and nothing to back them up. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-god-has-the-final-say-witnessing-ed-title/503506/170 "2009-07-21T17:22:27Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > Well, I can tell you some texts that speak to prayer, and what some of them have to say about the effect of prayer, including how God views prayer. > > But surely you know these texts, right? Nope. Educate this poor, dumb unbeliever. How does God view prayer? ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-god-has-the-final-say-witnessing-ed-title/503506/171 "2009-07-21T17:27:06Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > Nope. Educate this poor, dumb unbeliever. How does God view prayer? But you see, you staked a claim as having read the bible. What gives? I can’t tell you how God views prayers as much I can tell you what the bible has to say about how God views prayer. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-god-has-the-final-say-witnessing-ed-title/503506/172 "2009-07-21T17:30:20Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > But you see, you staked a claim as having read the bible. > > What gives? > > I can’t tell you how God views prayers as much I can tell you what the bible has to say about how God views prayer. This is getting ludicrous. You aren’t debating, you’re wasting time. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-god-has-the-final-say-witnessing-ed-title/503506/173 "2009-07-21T17:32:42Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > But you see, you staked a claim as having read the bible. I HAVE read the Bible. But I’ve read hundreds of books. I don’t remember every theme, character, fact, and plot twist from every book I’ve read. > [@](#): > > I can’t tell you how God views prayers as much I can tell you what the bible has to say about how God views prayer. So are you saying that what the Bible says about God may not be true? Well … regardless, what does the Bible say about how God views prayer? ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-god-has-the-final-say-witnessing-ed-title/503506/174 "2009-07-21T17:33:58Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > This is getting ludicrous. You aren’t debating, you’re wasting time. On the contrary. I will gladly discuss with **The Hamster King** what the bible has to say about prayer. **With cites.** I’m at work and do not have my bible with me, and have limited time. But I would be pleased to have a discussion with him about what the bible says on the topic. Given your background, you’re free to join. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Awesome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a698b9/32.png) [@Captain\_Awesome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Awesome)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-god-has-the-final-say-witnessing-ed-title/503506/175 "2009-07-21T17:34:51Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > _I’d be pleased to!_ > > If you want to discuss what the texts say, I’m game. If you want to witness to me-----to share your subjective beliefs with me------- than I have to pass. Excellent! …err just one thing, you failed to discuss the texts, or in any way answer any of the questions, scriptural or otherwise, that I have raised. I am not attempting to witness you, and from both positions it’s clearly as useful as the proverbial chocolate teapot. I am attempting to get someone to tackle the obvious theological issues raised in the OP and in scripture. No one has so far tried, besides ignoring my posts, or responding by ducking the question entirely. **Gbro** , I assume you’ve yet to get up to the book of Matthew in your bible study, but Jesus seems fairly specific concerning self proclaiming prayer, presumably this also extends to internet message boards. > [@](#): > > 6:5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. > 6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-god-has-the-final-say-witnessing-ed-title/503506/176 "2009-07-21T17:37:56Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > I HAVE read the Bible. But I’ve read hundreds of books. I don’t remember every theme, character, fact, and plot twist from every book I’ve read. > > So are you saying that what the Bible says about God may not be true? > > Well … regardless, what does the Bible say about how God views prayer? No, what I’m saying is that the practical application of what it says is a subjective one and a matter of faith. I’ve read a lot of books myself, and I’m familiar with what the bible has to say about prayer. Later this evening I will post some texts that speak to your question, and you can tall me what you recollect. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-god-has-the-final-say-witnessing-ed-title/503506/177 "2009-07-21T17:41:50Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > No, what I’m saying is that the practical application of what it says is a subjective one and a matter of faith. Fair enough. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-god-has-the-final-say-witnessing-ed-title/503506/178 "2009-07-21T17:47:08Z")
> [@Captain\_Awesome](#): > > Excellent! …err just one thing, you failed to discuss the texts, or in any way answer any of the questions, scriptural or otherwise, that I have raised. I am not attempting to witness you, and from both positions it’s clearly as useful as the proverbial chocolate teapot. I am attempting to get someone to tackle the obvious theological issues raised in the OP and in scripture. No one has so far tried, besides ignoring my posts, or responding by ducking the question entirely. > > **Gbro** , I assume you’ve yet to get up to the book of Matthew in your bible study, but Jesus seems fairly specific concerning self proclaiming prayer, presumably this also extends to internet message boards. Well, I haven’t been following your discussion. It would help if you gave me a question(s) to start with. If you want to discuss the content of 2 Thess 2, we can. But I’d point out that I am not posting from a dorm room, so comments like “yummy wicked humans!” don’t impress me and add nothing to an intelligent, rational discussion. So what is your “obvious theological issue” and is 2 Thess where you want to discuss it? ---
**Author:** ![cwthree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9de0a6/32.png) [@cwthree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cwthree)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-god-has-the-final-say-witnessing-ed-title/503506/179 "2009-07-21T17:54:13Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > For those keeping score at home, the tally of those in this thread who have read the entire bible----cover to cover------ includes: > … > Ignore the obvious fact that not a one of them has shown evidence of such an accomplishment. What “evidence” were you expecting to see? What evidence would you accept? As far as I know, SDMB doesn’t _have_ an “I’ve read the Bible” icon to put next to a member’s name. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Awesome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a698b9/32.png) [@Captain\_Awesome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Awesome)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-god-has-the-final-say-witnessing-ed-title/503506/180 "2009-07-21T18:09:25Z")
The reason my language is becoming increasing facetious it primarily down to your obfuscation in avoiding any of my questions which have up to now been perfectly rational and logical, for example in reference to post #31, > [@raindog](#): > > You bring up several very good questions/ items for discussion and debate. (including the original post) …but yet no attempt at an answer. > [@](#): > > So God’s deluding me and punishing me? In what way is this not a reasonable question to ask of the text in 2 Thessalonians 2? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-god-has-the-final-say-witnessing-ed-title/503506.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-god-has-the-final-say-witnessing-ed-title/503506.md?page=10)