# he reads to us from something called 'Ulysses'. **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 9, 2014, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-reads-to-us-from-something-called-ulysses/700891 "2014-10-09T20:15:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2014, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-reads-to-us-from-something-called-ulysses/700891/381 "2014-10-31T22:47:19Z")
> [@DChord568](#): > > You’re seriously considering the renown a mass market book is able to achieve in the digital age with the kind of renown that was possible for a highbrow piece of literature to achieve nationwide with the media available in 1963? Why the incredulous tone? The number of nation wide media outlets available in 1963 was minuscule compared to today. If something got mentioned on NBC, everyone in the country heard about it, because there were only two other networks out there. Nowadays, we got hundreds of networks, plus the Internet, plus vastly more radio options. (Not nearly as much print, of course.). It’s far, far more difficult to create a genuine nationwide sensation today than it ever was in the '60s, simply because there are so many media outlets, and so many of them cater to specialist niches. I don’t have a cite to back this up, but I’m pretty sure if you polled the number of people today familiar with _50 Shades_, even by reputation, and compared it with the number of people in 1963 familiar with Joyce, even by reputation, the numbers on Joyce (as a percentage of the population) would dwarf _50 Shades_. ---
**Author:** ![Strainger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/strainger/32/244_2.png) [@Strainger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strainger)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2014, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-reads-to-us-from-something-called-ulysses/700891/382 "2014-10-31T22:50:54Z")
> [@erysichthon](#): > > I’ll go with the simpler, Occam’s Razor explanation that when Sherman wrote “something called _Ulysses_,” he meant something called _Ulysses_. You’d think that, if he’s going to argue against the James Joyce novel, he’d at least argue for the Alfred, Lord Tennyson poem, which actually is something called _Ulysses_. ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2014, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-reads-to-us-from-something-called-ulysses/700891/383 "2014-10-31T23:32:51Z")
> [@DChord568](#): > > I’m afraid I’m going to have to repeat a phrase I used in an earlier post: you really need to get out more. > > Remembering again that the phrase I used was “top of mind,” which implies top of mind for the entire population, not just a selected portion of it — if you honestly think that everything you state above had an impact on a greater rather than a smaller percentage of sentient adults in the United States in this era, then you know little about the composition of the U.S. population in 1963. > > And if you think the ONLY standard for nationwide renown of ANY cultural phenomenon (be it Joyce or Homer) at a given moment is the number of times it’s mentioned in _The New York Times_ — well, then see the above paragraph. ("_The Times_ only mentioned Homer four times in 1963; therefore, no one in 1963 knew anything about Homer. Seriously?) > > I’m afraid it’s you whose making up an “alternate world” and imagining that your little insular one is reflective of the world as a whole. So your new approach is that no one but a few NYC eggheads was really aware of _Ulysses_. The novel was not something that the general public would readily think of when they heard the name “Ulysses,” even in a context that made it clear it was a title. The funny thing about this idea–well, apart from the preposterousness of your demand that we prove it was “on top” of literally everybody’s mind, an obviously impossible condition for _anything_ to meet–is that it completely destroys your previous arguments about how the song couldn’t refer to the novel because it would be offensive to include a reference to an ostensibly dirty book on the radio. If nobody knew what Ulysses was how would they be offended? ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2014, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-reads-to-us-from-something-called-ulysses/700891/384 "2014-11-01T00:49:00Z")
> [@DChord568](#): > > I’m afraid it’s you whose making up an “alternate world” and imagining that your little insular one is reflective of the world as a whole. The real lesson is that you should never ask a question if you don’t want to hear the answer. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2014, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-reads-to-us-from-something-called-ulysses/700891/385 "2014-11-01T02:19:19Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > FWIW, I linked to a literary analysis of Ulysses by Cambridge University that clearly discussed the book as being referenced in this song, if we’re swapping literary references. You must have missed that post, since you didn’t comment on it. Hell, I found 3 different books about Joyce online that reference the song. I don’t see any evidence that anybody believes Sherman’s line is a reference to something by Homer. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2014, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-reads-to-us-from-something-called-ulysses/700891/386 "2014-11-01T02:20:40Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Why the incredulous tone? The number of nation wide media outlets available in 1963 was minuscule compared to today. But he was alive in 1963 and he gives out $100 randomly. And he polled people. He cannot be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2014, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-reads-to-us-from-something-called-ulysses/700891/387 "2014-11-01T02:52:46Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > He cannot be wrong. Maybe not. But 7 of 11 people he polled certainly can. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2014, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-reads-to-us-from-something-called-ulysses/700891/388 "2014-11-01T12:47:34Z")
This just in: Historians at CUNY, while cataloging some personal papers of Allan Sherman, have uncovered an early draft of the lyrics to _Hello Muddah, Hello Fadduh_, Sherman’s enormously popular 1963 hit song. According to a press release issued by the university, the third verse was originally written as follows: _All the counselors hate the waiters And the lake has alligators Our head cook won’t give us some cake 'Til he reads us from some thing called Finnegan’s Wake._ Yes, it’s a little clunky, but it does show that he had James Joyce in mind when he was writing this song. Whaddya mean “cite?” It’s not enough I gotta make up the facts, now I have to make up my own cites too? ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2014, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-reads-to-us-from-something-called-ulysses/700891/389 "2014-11-01T14:53:49Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > This just in: > > Historians at CUNY, while cataloging some personal papers of Allan Sherman, have uncovered an early draft of the lyrics to _Hello Muddah, Hello Fadduh_, Sherman’s enormously popular 1963 hit song. According to a press release issued by the university, the third verse was originally written as follows: > > _All the counselors hate the waiters > And the lake has alligators > Our head cook won’t give us some cake > 'Til he reads us from some thing called Finnegan’s Wake._ > > Yes, it’s a little clunky, but it does show that he had James Joyce in mind when he was writing this song That’s stoopid. It’s clear, _obvious_, absolutely plain, that he was reading the lyrics to the [1850’s ballad](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnegan%27s_Wake). 1. Why would a cook, _a cook_ be reading a book like that? 2. Wouldn’t parents be outraged that the phrase “Three quarks for Muster Mark” would be used as the inspirations for the subatomic particle named by Murray Gell-Mann? A particle that helped to validate the quantum view of the universe? Which allowed for uncertainty and possibly hippies? Clearly, _clearly_ it was a reference to the street ballad. The story of the ballad is about a guy who, while drunk, whacks his head, is thought to be dead, and at his wake, someone spills whiskey in his mouth causing him to reawaken. WHISKEY=COOKING. IT’S ALL THERE IN THE TEXT, PEOPLE! Have I gone into a looking glass world where camp cooks read stream-of-consciousness, absurdist literature to EIGHT year olds? I also read your lost passage to 273 people I met on street corners and EVERY LAST ONE of these unimpeachable and uncorroboratable witnesses agreed that Sherman _HAD_ to mean the street ballad. Next time you want to put forth one of your crackpot “theories”, try to do a little research, ok? Sheesh. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2014, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-reads-to-us-from-something-called-ulysses/700891/390 "2014-11-01T17:11:26Z")
My first exposure to Sherman was _My Son, the Folksinger._ I heard it at the house of the inappropriate\* bachelor uncle as a child. Said uncle also gave me and my sister copies of Playboy to keep us quiet, and had bathroom wallpaper of giant buxom naked ladies in red velvet. It was the 60’s. \*(He also let us play with a roll of fiberglass insulation, demonstrating his poor judgment.) ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2014, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-reads-to-us-from-something-called-ulysses/700891/391 "2014-11-01T17:15:56Z")
> [@susan](#): > > \*(He also let us play with a roll of fiberglass insulation, demonstrating his poor judgment.) Or his meanness. Itchy! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2014, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-reads-to-us-from-something-called-ulysses/700891/392 "2014-11-02T00:41:14Z")
> [@DChord568](#): > > I’m afraid it’s you whose making up an “alternate world” and imagining that your little insular one is reflective of the world as a whole. It doesn’t have to reflect the world as a whole, just Sherman’s world. And in Sherman’s world, the Joyce book was far more significant at that time than Homer. But of course, nothing anyone says at this point is going to dissuade you from your preposterous theory. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2014, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-reads-to-us-from-something-called-ulysses/700891/393 "2014-11-02T04:52:58Z")
> [@DChord568](#): > > … > …In fact, the playing of records on the radio itself was all but unknown until the latter part of the 1940s. The vast majority of music performances on the radio were live, and one-time events. Did you hear the same song more than once? Sure, but not nearly to the extent these songs were heard from the mid-1950s forward. > > Music in the home was primarily heard on a record player… I grew up listening to WQXR in NYC; the radio station/fm location is gone now. (“Woody’s Children”–wasn’t that hosted by Somebody Sherman?) I distinctly remember my disappointment when my parents told me that the music from the radio was not being played by “live” musicians. And my contempt for the whole idea, which was anybody could pick out a record. And, interesting about the historiography and reception history of Joyce in the 1960s. (Sorry, no up thread cites.) I don’t feel like hunting down the date, but there’s a fairly well known photo of Marylin Monroe reading Ulysses. Prominently reading, one might say, in that photos of her or any bombshell reading, period, are anomalous. Staged, no doubt, and released by a professional agency which knew that any number of connections would be made. Ah, it’s 1955. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2014, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-reads-to-us-from-something-called-ulysses/700891/394 "2014-11-02T04:56:55Z")
11,640 times this thread has been opened and at least glanced at. Hmm. ---
**Author:** ![Maserschmidt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maserschmidt/32/18829_2.png) [@Maserschmidt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maserschmidt)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2014, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-reads-to-us-from-something-called-ulysses/700891/395 "2014-11-02T11:02:32Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > And, interesting about the historiography and reception history of Joyce in the 1960s. (Sorry, no up thread cites.) I don’t feel like hunting down the date, but there’s a fairly well known photo of Marylin Monroe reading Ulysses. Prominently reading, one might say, in that photos of her or any bombshell reading, period, are anomalous. Staged, no doubt, and released by a professional agency which knew that any number of connections would be made. > > Ah, it’s 1955. First, she’s at the back of the book, and the thought of her reading Molly Bloom’s post-coital soliloquy is kinda hot. Second, the photographer says it’s not staged, and that MM found the book slow going, and I’m willing to believe that. And third, a quote from MM: > [@](#): > > Here is Joyce writing what a woman thinks to herself. Can he, does he really know her innermost thoughts? But after I read the whole book, I could better understand that Joyce is an artist who could penetrate the souls of people, male or female. It really doesn’t matter that Joyce doesn’t have… or never felt a menstrual cramp. To me Leopold Bloom is a central character. He is the despised Irish Jew, married to an Irish Catholic woman. It is through them Joyce develops much of what he wants to say. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2014, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-reads-to-us-from-something-called-ulysses/700891/396 "2014-11-02T13:43:03Z")
And what is it Joyce most fundamentally wants to say? I’ll tell you what Joyce most fundamentally wants to say: _Hello, Muddah . . . Hello Fadduh . . ._ ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2014, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-reads-to-us-from-something-called-ulysses/700891/397 "2014-11-02T14:07:06Z")
> [@Maserschmidt](#): > > First, she’s at the back of the book, and the thought of her reading Molly Bloom’s post-coital soliloquy is kinda hot. Where is Molly Bloom from? Gibraltar! Where is Gibraltar? The south of Spain! What else is in the south of Spain? _Granada!!!_ It all ties together, people! ---
**Author:** ![Maserschmidt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maserschmidt/32/18829_2.png) [@Maserschmidt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maserschmidt)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2014, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-reads-to-us-from-something-called-ulysses/700891/398 "2014-11-02T14:07:46Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > And what is it Joyce most fundamentally wants to say? I’ll tell you what Joyce most fundamentally wants to say: > > _Hello, Muddah . . . Hello Fadduh . . ._ I realize you’re joking, but it’s worth clarifying that according to Joyce, what he was aiming for was a systematic de-sissyfication of Irish men. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2014, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-reads-to-us-from-something-called-ulysses/700891/399 "2014-11-02T14:57:33Z")
> [@Maserschmidt](#): > > First, she’s at the back of the book, and the thought of her reading Molly Bloom’s post-coital soliloquy is kinda hot. > > Second, the photographer says it’s not staged, and that MM found the book slow going, and I’m willing to believe that. > > And third, a quote from MM:… Thank you for this. I’ll think about it. Is that sourced in the URL I linked (I just grabbed it from an image search)? (I’m in an SD mood and cannot be arsed, as they say in a an expression I just learned yesterday from here.) [QUOTE=Maserschmidt;17866669 [/quote] […] it’s worth clarifying that according to Joyce, what he was aiming for was […] [/QUOTE] What was Joyce aiming for in writing the book _Ulysses_? Now there’s a thread… ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2014, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-reads-to-us-from-something-called-ulysses/700891/400 "2014-11-02T15:19:41Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > This just in: > > Historians at CUNY, while cataloging some personal papers of Allan Sherman, have uncovered an early draft of the lyrics to _Hello Muddah, Hello Fadduh_, Sherman’s enormously popular 1963 hit song. According to a press release issued by the university, the third verse was originally written as follows: > > _All the counselors hate the waiters > And the lake has alligators > Our head cook won’t give us some cake > 'Til he reads us from some thing called Finnegan’s Wake._ > > Yes, it’s a little clunky, but it does show that he had James Joyce in mind when he was writing this song. > > Whaddya mean “cite?” It’s not enough I gotta make up the facts, now I have to make up my own cites too? > [@Fenris](#): > > That’s stoopid. It’s clear, _obvious_, absolutely plain, that he was reading the lyrics to the [1850’s ballad](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnegan%27s_Wake). > > … > > 1. Wouldn’t parents be outraged that the phrase “Three quarks for Muster Mark” would be used as the inspirations for the subatomic particle named by Murray Gell-Mann? … Correction: although commonly claimed as the source of the name, according to Feynman the passage was unknown to them. See [Particle Physics, Cheese, and the Word Quark](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=282483), and the thread referenced therein. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-reads-to-us-from-something-called-ulysses/700891.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/he-reads-to-us-from-something-called-ulysses/700891.md?page=21)