# Heads up - mass terrorist attack in India - developing **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 26, 2008, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heads-up-mass-terrorist-attack-in-india-developing/474605 "2008-11-26T20:33:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2008, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heads-up-mass-terrorist-attack-in-india-developing/474605/201 "2008-11-29T17:21:25Z")
> [@Fish](#): > > How effective the 9/11 attacks were depends on your definition of success. > > It undoubtedly won Al Queda a number of converts. Rich Muslims donated some money their way. It raised the esteem of the group. For a time afterward, Al Queda was flush with men, equipment, and cash. It also lead to the death of Saddam, an enemy of theirs; great self inflicted damage to America’s economic, military, moral, and political strength; the destruction of Iraqi secularism; and major damage to the cause of democracy in the Middle East. It was a huge and multileveled success for them, even if we did most of the dirty work ourselves. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2008, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heads-up-mass-terrorist-attack-in-india-developing/474605/202 "2008-11-29T17:26:24Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > And Iran is weak. It’s a regional power in a region full of weak nations. Which is weaker: Iran or Madagascar? > [@](#): > > I’m saying that that is what we and they are both doing, so it should be called the same thing. Call it terrorism or flibtergits. That’s a silly way to approach the semantics of the situation. But anyway, my original point stands. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2008, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heads-up-mass-terrorist-attack-in-india-developing/474605/203 "2008-11-29T17:26:40Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > Mr. K noticed that the Indian anti-terror teams were using WWII weapons, for the most part. Does anyone know where they stand (aside from The Bomb) with regard to military sophistication and strength? Up there. India is the tenth-largest defense spender in the world. The IAF is currently buying Russian fighters and bombers which are equivalent or in some cases more advanced than the ones the Russians are using themselves. I assume the anti-terror teams are operated by the ATS (the Maharastra anti-terror bureau) so they’re locally funded, which means lots of money that ought to be spent on their guns is being funnelled to the pockets of politicians instead. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2008, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heads-up-mass-terrorist-attack-in-india-developing/474605/204 "2008-11-29T17:28:13Z")
> [@Fish](#): > > You could say that the radical Muslims cannot win a conventional war, and they do not have the political clout to get what they want through conventional political channels, so they must use unconventional tactics. You could say it, but before you did, it might be worth asking: “What exactly do radical Muslims want?” It seems to me this might be an important piece of the puzzle. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2008, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heads-up-mass-terrorist-attack-in-india-developing/474605/205 "2008-11-29T17:33:12Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Which is weaker: Iran or Madagascar? Both are weak; it doesn’t matter. > [@brazil84](#): > > That’s a silly way to approach the semantics of the situation. But anyway, my original point stands. Hardly. It’s not a silly point; it answers the question “Why Muslims ?” Answer : Because we define the tactics they are forced to use as terrorism, while defining OUR tactics as not being terrorism, when the real difference is greater power on our part. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2008, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heads-up-mass-terrorist-attack-in-india-developing/474605/206 "2008-11-29T17:35:41Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Who says that’s their desire? I think you attribue to them a certain ideological nobility that is unearned. I guess it’s just wishful thinking on my part that makes me hope the terrorists have a long term aim that in the end will wear them down with its sheer futility, as opposed to them just making a short term point because they can. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2008, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heads-up-mass-terrorist-attack-in-india-developing/474605/207 "2008-11-29T17:36:20Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Both are weak; it doesn’t matter. So by your reasoning, one should expect Madagascar to sponsor approximately the same amount of terrorism as Iran, right? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2008, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heads-up-mass-terrorist-attack-in-india-developing/474605/208 "2008-11-29T17:42:06Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > So by your reasoning, one should expect Madagascar to sponsor approximately the same amount of terrorism as Iran, right? Are they opposed by enemies as much more powerful as them as Iran is outmatched by us ? If they were in conflict with America and Israel for as long, with the same relative power levels, then yes; that’s exactly what I’d expect to see. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2008, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heads-up-mass-terrorist-attack-in-india-developing/474605/209 "2008-11-29T17:43:59Z")
> [@chowder](#): > > Is the number of civilians killed by America in Iraq greater than the number of civilians killed by terrorists on 9/11 or 7/7. > > I doubt it Somehow I don’t think you are going to get an honest assessment here because people are going to chalk up any deaths in Iraq to American forces, as though there weren’t Islamist death squads roaming Iraq this whole time. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2008, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heads-up-mass-terrorist-attack-in-india-developing/474605/210 "2008-11-29T17:46:02Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > You are going to have to show evidence that these attacks were motivated by a desire to spread Islam. Because all the evidence I have seems to point at them being done by Afghans against India and Indian interests and that religion is not a part of it. Then why did they attack a Chabad house? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2008, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heads-up-mass-terrorist-attack-in-india-developing/474605/211 "2008-11-29T17:46:59Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Somehow I don’t think you are going to get an honest assessment here because people are going to chalk up any deaths in Iraq to American forces, as though there weren’t Islamist death squads roaming Iraq this whole time. And why are they doing so ? Because we smashed the government that was keeping them in check. And failed miserably at imposing any kind of order in its place. People were safer and more free under Saddam, nasty and tyrannical as he was ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2008, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heads-up-mass-terrorist-attack-in-india-developing/474605/212 "2008-11-29T17:47:19Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Are they opposed by enemies as much more powerful as them as Iran is outmatched by us ? If they were in conflict with America and Israel for as long, with the same relative power levels, then yes; that’s exactly what I’d expect to see. Lol. I guess that means “no.” It seems that “powerless” isn’t the only criteria after all. It’s fascinating that you would cite “conflict with Israel” as another criteria, however. What exactly did Israel ever do to Iran to provoke such a conflict? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2008, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heads-up-mass-terrorist-attack-in-india-developing/474605/213 "2008-11-29T17:50:43Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Really though, how effective are they? How many times would they have to cause carnage like this before it would change our way of life? You could almost point at 9/11 as an advert for their incompetence, for the overall superficial effect it had. It may have created problems by promoting distrust, but there is no way it has brought the citizens of the West ,or anywhere, to its knees in the way the terrorists would desire. 9/11 was probably one of the most successful military operations in history. They completely achieved their objectives. We changed our way of life exactly as Osama bin Laden expected us to. It disrupted our economy and sowed distrust domestically and between America and her allies. How you can say that 9/11 was anything but an unparalleled success is beyond me. ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2008, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heads-up-mass-terrorist-attack-in-india-developing/474605/214 "2008-11-29T17:50:58Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > So by your reasoning, one should expect Madagascar to sponsor approximately the same amount of terrorism as Iran, right? Power is relative. _Assuming there was a conflict_, Madagascar would sponsor terrorism against people more powerful than itself; it would be subject to terrorism from anti-Malagasy people less powerful than itself. The United States tends to accuse people of terrorism because — well, face it, there aren’t many nations militarily _more powerful_ than the U.S. in the present day. This wasn’t always true; in 1776, the U.S. engaged in guerilla warfare and terrorist activities. What else would you call the Boston Tea Party, if not theft, trespassing, and destruction of private property? We didn’t have the military might to withstand the armies of Britain in a stand-firm-on-the-battlefield Napoleonic showdown. Instead, we broke laws; we tarred and feathered British loyalists; we hid in the forests and shot at the British from under cover; we attacked on a sacred holiday. Today we call this “good tactics” because … well, because it was us. If it were done against us today, we would call it “terrorism.” ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2008, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heads-up-mass-terrorist-attack-in-india-developing/474605/215 "2008-11-29T17:54:52Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > And why are they doing so ? Because we smashed the government that was keeping them in check. And failed miserably at imposing any kind of order in its place. People were safer and more free under Saddam, nasty and tyrannical as he was People were not more free under Saddam, that’s ludicrous. They weren’t even necessarily safer. I’m not going to get into one of these ridiculous arguments where your dogma of hate America first will trump all rigorous analysis of the situation. Muslims who kill Muslims are responsible for the murders they commit, whatever the exigent circumstances are. I’m not one to give America a pass on this one, but unless you can actually look at this with a critical eye there is no point in carrying a discussion forward with you. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2008, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heads-up-mass-terrorist-attack-in-india-developing/474605/216 "2008-11-29T17:55:14Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Lol. I guess that means “no.” No; it means that they don’t have a reason to. Iran fought back against Iraq with it’s army, not terrorism - because it was powerful enough to do so relative to Iraq. They don’t do that with us or Israel, because they’d lose. Is Madagascar presently in an intense conflict with someone that powerful ? > [@brazil84](#): > > It seems that “powerless” isn’t the only criteria after all. It’s fascinating that you would cite “conflict with Israel” as another criteria, however. What exactly did Israel ever do to Iran to provoke such a conflict? It’s irrelevant whether they did anything or not; you are missing or ignoring the point. Namely, that whatever the reason for the conflict, Iran knows it can’t win with conventional forces, so it doesn’t try. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2008, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heads-up-mass-terrorist-attack-in-india-developing/474605/217 "2008-11-29T18:04:07Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > People were not more free under Saddam, that’s ludicrous. They weren’t even necessarily safer. Of course they were. Women could get educations and hold jobs ( right away that’s half of the population less free ); gays weren’t being hunted down and killed; they were a lot less likely to die from disease or deprivation; Sunni and Shia could and did marry without being killed for it; and so on. We’ve turned a nasty secular dictatorship, into a nastier fundamentalist failed state. > [@mswas](#): > > I’m not going to get into one of these ridiculous arguments where your dogma of hate America first will trump all rigorous analysis of the situation. Claiming that pointing out the consequences of our actions is “hate America first” won’t make our action any less destructive or unjustified. > [@mswas](#): > > Muslims who kill Muslims are responsible for the murders they commit, whatever the exigent circumstances are. How very convenient for us. We wreck the country and none of the predictable effects are our fault. > [@mswas](#): > > I’m not one to give America a pass on this one, but unless you can actually look at this with a critical eye there is no point in carrying a discussion forward with you. Oh, please; you are giving America a pass right now. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2008, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heads-up-mass-terrorist-attack-in-india-developing/474605/218 "2008-11-29T18:06:03Z")
Yeah, you are incapable of critical thought on certain subjects. In essence you are saying that if I don’t place the onus of responsibility for everything that has happened at the feet of America I am giving America a pass. It’s a silly argument. I’ll speak about this with people who are more capable of nuance. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2008, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heads-up-mass-terrorist-attack-in-india-developing/474605/219 "2008-11-29T18:08:25Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Is Madagascar presently in an intense conflict with someone that powerful ? I have no idea. > [@](#): > > It’s irrelevant whether they did anything or not; you are missing or ignoring the point. Namely, that whatever the reason for the conflict, Iran knows it can’t win with conventional forces, so it doesn’t try. I’m a little confused . . . are you saying that if Iran had the conventional ability to do so, it would invade and occupy Israel? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2008, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heads-up-mass-terrorist-attack-in-india-developing/474605/220 "2008-11-29T18:09:43Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > I’m a little confused . . . are you saying that if Iran had the conventional ability to do so, it would invade and occupy Israel? I think that’s sort of implied in “Crush the Pirate State of Israel”, etc., isn’t it? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heads-up-mass-terrorist-attack-in-india-developing/474605.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heads-up-mass-terrorist-attack-in-india-developing/474605.md?page=12)