# Heads up - mass terrorist attack in India - developing **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 26, 2008, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heads-up-mass-terrorist-attack-in-india-developing/474605 "2008-11-26T20:33:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2008, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heads-up-mass-terrorist-attack-in-india-developing/474605/121 "2008-11-28T13:18:38Z")
> [@Szlater](#): > > Seems to me, alot of the problems are caused by religious zealots from all sides (Muslim, Christian and Jewish). I think we can go a step further and just say zealots be they religious, nationalist or something else. ---
**Author:** ![Szlater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@Szlater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Szlater)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2008, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heads-up-mass-terrorist-attack-in-india-developing/474605/122 "2008-11-28T13:21:02Z")
> [@yojimbo](#): > > I think we can go a step further and just say zealots be they religious, nationalist or something else. Oh yes, I agree it’s nationalism too. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2008, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heads-up-mass-terrorist-attack-in-india-developing/474605/123 "2008-11-28T14:07:15Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > A great deal of what we regard as “Muslim” violence is rooted in tribalism and attempts to control land. It’s only poor news reporting and selective memory that allows one to call Rwandan struggle to seize land “tribal retribution” or Catholic Ireland’s struggle to “make Ireland whole”/seize Northern Ireland “the troubles,” but call Hamas’ struggle to seize the West bank, or Osama’s struggle to seize power in Muslim countries, “religious terror.” The difference is that they use religious motivation. Nobody called The PLO’s terror actions religious terror, when they hijacking airplanes or killed Israeli sportsmen in Munich, etc. However Hamas (“Islamic Resistance Movement”) is an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt which they still have close relations with, and they base their existence directly on Islamic beliefs and religious texts and the official statements of Hamas leaders as well as various suicide videos often make liberal use Islam as their direct motivation. And goal. An Islamic Kalifat. Why insist they are wrong when they themselves says so explicitly? Unless you think they are a bunch of lying bastards the official HAMAS slogan might have convinced you otherwise: > [@](#): > > “God is its target, the Prophet is its model, the Qur’an its constitution: Jihad is its path and death for the sake of God is the loftiest of its wishes” and > [@](#): > > “there is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad” There are other terror groups in the Middle East, which are not religious. The Kurdistan Workers’ Party for instance or the PFLP. But all this is OT. In fact this thread has been derailed from hell and back, which is rather strange since there are a number of very important questions with regard to the actual Bombay terror attacks, that could be discussed. - Especially, if, as it now seems likely, the terrorists were from Pakistan or that there was a heavy Pakistani (not necessarily official) involvement how is this going to affect the situation between India and Pakistan. - What were the terrorists’ aim with the attacks? - What are the chances that the remaining hostages will come out of this alive. Will Israeli special forces be directly involved. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2008, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heads-up-mass-terrorist-attack-in-india-developing/474605/124 "2008-11-28T14:26:55Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > But all this is OT. In fact this thread has been derailed from hell and back, which is rather strange since there are a number of very important questions with regard to the actual Bombay terror attacks, that could be discussed. > > - Especially, if, as it now seems likely, the terrorists were from Pakistan or that there was a heavy Pakistani (not necessarily official) involvement how is this going to affect the situation between India and Pakistan. We have no evidence of that at all. The Indian Government blames Pakistan for everything and anything that happens and have been quite disingenuous at times. No - these attacks did not - as one Minister alleged - require a significant command and control system to co-ordinate. It required wrist-watches or mobile phones. They were evidently well-trained but that does not require State involvement either. Kashmir, for my money, is the likely source. Maybe rogue ISI elements were involved but we have to remember there are rogue Hindu nationalist elements as well. People on both sides are itching for an excuse for war. Cool heads are needed at this time. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2008, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heads-up-mass-terrorist-attack-in-india-developing/474605/125 "2008-11-28T15:32:53Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > We have no evidence of that at all. The Indian Government blames Pakistan for everything and anything that happens and have been quite disingenuous at times. Perhaps. But the truth hardly matters if this is the line India is going to follow, which certainly seems to be the case: [Initial information suggests Pak hand in Mumbai attack: Pranab](http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Initial_information_suggests_Pak_hand_in_Mumbai_attack_Pranab/articleshow/3769103.cms?TOI_latestnews). And of course blaming foreign elements is always a good way to shore up popularity. Although it is not a beyond the pale accusation. At least one of the terrorists whom have been arrested is confirmed to be Pakistani. I don’t think the Indian would directly lie on the facts. Also apparently at least two other of arrested terrorists were Pakistani-British ([Mumbai attack: British men ‘among the terrorists’](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/3533075/Mumbai-attack-British-men-among-the-terrorists-Bombay-India.html)). The whole operation is very unusual. Not at all a run-of-the-mill al-Qaeda operation. Which might also indicate something. Or perhaps just that they are improvising. Also a bit unusual is that they have apprehended a number of the terrorists alive. These are young men. They will not hold up under Indian interrogation. For once we may get the whole story. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2008, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heads-up-mass-terrorist-attack-in-india-developing/474605/126 "2008-11-28T15:38:00Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > For once we may get the whole story. They may get the whole story. What the public get fed is a whole 'nuther thing. As Muslims are Muslims first and nationality second by and large I don’t think you can draw any inferences from the nationalities involved. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2008, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heads-up-mass-terrorist-attack-in-india-developing/474605/127 "2008-11-28T15:39:32Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > Kashmir, for my money, is the likely source. But supposedly Kashmiri would be primarily interested in the Kashmir situation and Kashmir independence. Why should they target US and British nationals or Jews? That indicates a global agenda. Although the MO is very different, the targeting of luxury hotels with Western guests follows a string of similar attacks in other countries. ---
**Author:** ![Szlater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@Szlater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Szlater)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2008, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heads-up-mass-terrorist-attack-in-india-developing/474605/128 "2008-11-28T15:51:46Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > But supposedly Kashmiri would be primarily interested in the Kashmir situation and Kashmir independence. Why should they target US and British nationals or Jews? That indicates a global agenda. Although the MO is very different, the targeting of luxury hotels with Western guests follows a string of similar attacks in other countries. As a way to embarrass and punish the Indian government. Kill some Indians and it’s big news for a day (see coverage of previous incidents), kill some Brits or Yanks and you get international coverage for months. You also hit at the economy of India and significantly affect tourism. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2008, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heads-up-mass-terrorist-attack-in-india-developing/474605/129 "2008-11-28T15:53:38Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > But supposedly Kashmiri would be primarily interested in the Kashmir situation and Kashmir independence. Why should they target US and British nationals or Jews? That indicates a global agenda. Although the MO is very different, the targeting of luxury hotels with Western guests follows a string of similar attacks in other countries. I meant Kashmir as a source of arms and training. Plenty of reasons why a Kashmir group would carry out this act and hunt out ‘Crusaders’. Maximum international attention and maximum damage to India plus we’re the ones attacking the Umma. You should not make the mistake of thinking that we either have the full facts and context of terrorist motivation or an understanding of their mind-set. They did it. They did it this way. It made sense to them. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2008, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heads-up-mass-terrorist-attack-in-india-developing/474605/130 "2008-11-28T16:15:59Z")
It seems the hostage situation at the Jewish centre has come to an end, without Israeli involvement. All five hostages were killed. Also killed in the centre were an American man and his 13yo daughter. The total death count has now risen to 124. ---
**Author:** ![Szlater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@Szlater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Szlater)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2008, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heads-up-mass-terrorist-attack-in-india-developing/474605/131 "2008-11-28T16:23:20Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > It seems the hostage situation at the Jewish centre has come to an end, without Israeli involvement. Who was talking about Israeli involvement? I’ve not seen that mentioned anywhere, why would Israel be involved in a situation in a foreign country? ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2008, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heads-up-mass-terrorist-attack-in-india-developing/474605/132 "2008-11-28T16:34:28Z")
> [@Szlater](#): > > Who was talking about Israeli involvement? > > I’ve not seen that mentioned anywhere, why would Israel be involved in a situation in a foreign country? I saw an article that said an Israeli special forces team was flying to India. Israel has been involved in hostage situation in foreign countries before. I think they were there in Munich - although they didn’t see action. And they have been involved in a hostage operation in Uganda. Makes sense since they have highly trained specialist few other countries have. ---
**Author:** ![Szlater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@Szlater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Szlater)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2008, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heads-up-mass-terrorist-attack-in-india-developing/474605/133 "2008-11-28T16:37:43Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > I saw an article that said an Israeli special forces team was flying to India. Israel has been involved in hostage situation in foreign countries before. I think they were there in Munich - although they didn’t see action. And they have been involved in a hostage operation in Uganda. Makes sense since they have highly trained specialist few other countries have. Their involvement in Uganda was an act of war (justified or not). The rest seems like masturbatory fantasies of the kind you see from Tom Clancy fans. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2008, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heads-up-mass-terrorist-attack-in-india-developing/474605/134 "2008-11-28T16:39:26Z")
> [@Szlater](#): > > Who was talking about Israeli involvement? **Rune** suggested it earlier. And no offense, **Rune** , but it didn’t make any sense. Just because Jews are involved does not mean Israel will be; they’re not the Jewish mothership. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2008, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heads-up-mass-terrorist-attack-in-india-developing/474605/135 "2008-11-28T16:53:33Z")
A [link.](http://cnnwire.blogs.cnn.com/2008/11/27/israeli-rescue-team-heads-to-mumbai/) [Another.](http://www.crownheights.info/index.php?itemid=14409) I don’t know what constitutes [“other professionals.”](http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull&cid=1227702347414) 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Szlater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@Szlater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Szlater)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2008, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heads-up-mass-terrorist-attack-in-india-developing/474605/136 "2008-11-28T16:58:36Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > A [link.](http://cnnwire.blogs.cnn.com/2008/11/27/israeli-rescue-team-heads-to-mumbai/) > [Another.](http://www.crownheights.info/index.php?itemid=14409) > > I don’t know what constitutes [“other professionals.”](http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull&cid=1227702347414) 🙂 Those are apparently the [ZAKA](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZAKA) “rescue teams”, according to the BBC, they recover body parts for ritual burial. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2008, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heads-up-mass-terrorist-attack-in-india-developing/474605/137 "2008-11-28T17:00:37Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > **Rune** suggested it earlier. And no offense, **Rune** , but it didn’t make any sense. Just because Jews are involved does not mean Israel will be; they’re not the Jewish mothership. I think they were actually Israeli citizens. It was just an article I passed by. It might very well have been just a rumour. Perhaps this was one of the objectives: > [@](#): > > But if India discovers that the intelligence agency is connected to the Mumbai attacks — even rogue elements of the agency — the slightly warmer relationship that has been fostered between the neighbors would no doubt return to a deep freeze. And that may have partly been the motivation of whoever carried out the attacks. [India’s Suspicion of Pakistan Clouds U.S. Strategy](http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/28/world/asia/28diplo.html?_r=1&partner=rss&emc=rss&pagewanted=all) - to disrupt better relations between Pakistan and India and thus hinder US plans to have Pakistan focus on militants in the north. Although that sounds like a bit of complex plan. > [@](#): > > The other three Caucasian women were removed from the room next day, and the terrorists informed the Muezzinoglus that they had been shot. [Turkish couple let off by terrorists for being Muslims](http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Turkish_couple_let_off_by_terrorists_for_being_Muslims/articleshow/3766609.cms) - shooting hostage women in cold blood. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2008, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heads-up-mass-terrorist-attack-in-india-developing/474605/138 "2008-11-28T17:08:40Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > **Rune** suggested it earlier. And no offense, **Rune** , but it didn’t make any sense. Just because Jews are involved does not mean Israel will be; they’re not the Jewish mothership. No, but it’s fairly common for countries to invite other countries to participate in search and rescue and other paramilitary operations within their own borders, particularly where those countries’ citizens or nationals are involved- and I believe the standard Israeli line is that all Jews are Israeli nationals where or not they want to be, in the sense that they have a standing invitation to come and live in Israel, etc. Hell, foreign governments call in the SAS all the time, even when British nationals aren’t involved. They’re the go-to guys for antiterrorism operations. > [@](#): > > And beyond which, it’s what the terrorists have in common. You have Arabs, Pakistanis, Persians, and Indonesians. They don’t have a common ethnicity, country, or language. Well, actually they do have a common language- they all speak (at least a modicum of) Arabic, although there are “approved” translations in most languages. There’s no tradition of holding services in the _lingua rustica_ as in Christianity, though. ---
**Author:** ![Szlater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@Szlater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Szlater)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2008, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heads-up-mass-terrorist-attack-in-india-developing/474605/139 "2008-11-28T17:15:22Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Hell, foreign governments call in the SAS all the time, even when British nationals aren’t involved. They’re the go-to guys for antiterrorism operations. As “advisors”. If they actually take part in anything, it’s never discussed in the media (probably becausethe country asking for help would look like it couldn’t cope on their own). ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2008, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heads-up-mass-terrorist-attack-in-india-developing/474605/140 "2008-11-28T17:33:53Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > No, but it’s fairly common for countries to invite other countries to participate in search and rescue and other paramilitary operations within their own borders, particularly where those countries’ citizens or nationals are involved- and I believe the standard Israeli line is that all Jews are Israeli nationals where or not they want to be, in the sense that they have a standing invitation to come and live in Israel, etc. If there some of the hostages were Israeli, that’s different and makes more sense. Or for that matter so does the idea of Israeli providing some level of expertise. I thought **Rune** was saying Israeli might get involved just because some of the hostages were Jewish, which I didn’t find too believable on its own. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heads-up-mass-terrorist-attack-in-india-developing/474605.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heads-up-mass-terrorist-attack-in-india-developing/474605.md?page=8)