# Healing, does anyone else realize it exists??? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 17, 2002, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healing-does-anyone-else-realize-it-exists/109511 "2002-05-17T07:22:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![berdollos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ed8c4c/32.png) [@berdollos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/berdollos)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2002, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healing-does-anyone-else-realize-it-exists/109511/1 "2002-05-17T07:22:42Z")
Do you think that so-called faith or spiritual or energy healing can exist? I have seen instances that I would have thought were not possible, including rapid healing of arthritis, energy used to heal someone. Two example are Rosalyn Bruyere, a well-known healer and Daskalos (in a book titled The Magus of Strovolos). Anyone who explores the topic thoroughly will come up with convincing stories of healing or see convincing demos. That is, unless your mind is closed to the possibility. This is not to say that there are no fakes or phonies, but that real spiritual healing does exist. ---
**Author:** ![kambuckta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/53a042/32.png) [@kambuckta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kambuckta)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2002, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healing-does-anyone-else-realize-it-exists/109511/2 "2002-05-17T07:55:46Z")
Skeptic puts her hand up! What is this ‘energy’ of which you speak? Can it be measured? Or is it that the patient spontaneously recovers (for any number of reasons from said ailment) and the healer takes the credit? My mind is not _CLOSED_ as you presume. It is more than open to the possibility of being changed BY EVIDENCE. Solid evidence. SCIENTIFIC evidence. Not based upon some incense-burning, funky kaftan-wearing, ‘I’m channelling again, don’t wreck the vibe, man’ person’s word for it. ---
**Author:** ![kitarak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kitarak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kitarak)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2002, 9:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healing-does-anyone-else-realize-it-exists/109511/3 "2002-05-17T09:32:58Z")
Do you by any chance define ‘explore thoroughly’ to be ‘explore until you get an answer that agrees with mine?’. No offence intended (well, not much), but that’s usually the interpretation that seems to be meant when people say “Anyone who explores the subject thoroughly will see that I am right.” I don’t say that spiritual healing doesn’t exist. I’m open to the possibility that it does, even if I find the reasoning behind it ludicrous (that of course doesn’t mean it’s wrong. After all, a round earth is ludicrous if you’ve always believed the earth was flat). However, I have seen no evidence for it. I haven’t looked hard, but if it’s such a powerful effect then why isn’t it more well known? And I would qualify your last statement with my own: There are many many fakes and phonies. Hidden by these there may be a very very small number of genuine healers. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2002, 10:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healing-does-anyone-else-realize-it-exists/109511/4 "2002-05-17T10:05:25Z")
My mind isn’t closed to certain possibilities. For example, my mind isn’t closed to the idea of extraterrestrial life. I’ll just need some evidence before I start promoting the ideas to others. I’m also open to the idea that evolution has lasted for so long (~640 million years, more or less) that the resultant biochemistry had a chance to develop all kinds of safeguards and backup systems; to the point where spontaneous remission might be unusual but hardly mystical or spiritual. A person’s body recovers when he is treated by a “healer” or a person’s body recovers when some subtle combination of neurochemicals finds the right mix. Potayto, potahto. I don’t know the exact biochemical mechanism in play, and possibly no-one does or ever will for certain, but I accept evidence that biochemistry exists. I’ve yet to see any evidence supporting the mechanism of spritual healing. As for convincing stories, those can be found supporting anything you want. Want to believe in human levitation? I can find a convincing story. Angels, invisibility, communication from beyond the grave? How many volumes do you need? The fact that you started this kind of thread suggests you might not need that many at all. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/d26b3c/32.png) [@UncleBill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBill)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2002, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healing-does-anyone-else-realize-it-exists/109511/5 "2002-05-17T14:55:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bryan Ekers \* > \*\*\a person’s body recovers when some subtle combination of neurochemicals finds the right mix. Potayto, potahto. > > I don’t know the exact biochemical mechanism in play, and possibly no-one does or ever will for certain, but I accept evidence that biochemistry exists. I’ve yet to see any evidence supporting the mechanism of spritual healing.\*\* I’m of the school that the human brain, when in the correct state, can do incredible things. These sick people may believe these healers enough that their minds get into that state, and self-healing happens. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2002, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healing-does-anyone-else-realize-it-exists/109511/6 "2002-05-17T16:52:25Z")
Spiritual healing = Granola nothin’ but nuts and flakes! These magnet things, however, are the real deal! Did I mention I sell magnets? Have I got a deal for you! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Phobos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Phobos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phobos)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2002, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healing-does-anyone-else-realize-it-exists/109511/7 "2002-05-17T16:59:27Z")
The critical-thinking mantras of “extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence” and “Occam’s Razor” come to mind. Anecdotes don’t cut it (although they can be a starting point for more detailed investigations). Like kambuckta said, can you measure those “healing energies” or even show that they exist? Examples of healing that surprise medical science do not necessitate a supernatural source. Like UncleBill said, the human mind & body already has a natural healing ability that can be augmented through natural methods (e.g., positive mindset). Perhaps “healing energies” exist, but without direct evidence, it’s a leap of faith to reach that conclusion now. So, the question comes down to - - do you believe it’s a spiritual healing because you have eliminated other, less exotic possibilities or because it feels good to think it’s true? Different people have different standards of evidence. You can find convincing anecdotes and demos for and against such claims. Ask yourself which ones are more well-supported. ---
**Author:** ![occ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8c91f0/32.png) [@occ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/occ)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2002, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healing-does-anyone-else-realize-it-exists/109511/8 "2002-05-17T17:11:35Z")
And while we’re all being skeptical, why is it that we ridicule centuries-old European medical practices, but fawn over centuries-old Eastern medical practices? I don’t see how many of these “energy-balancing” techniques are any different than balancing your “bodily humors”, but hey, never underestimate the power of the placebo effect. ---
**Author:** ![Regina](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d78d45/32.png) [@Regina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Regina)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2002, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healing-does-anyone-else-realize-it-exists/109511/9 "2002-05-17T17:17:02Z")
A search of [James Randi’s site](http://www.randi.org/) revealed no matches for Bruyere or Daskalos. If The Amazing Randi doesn’t even mention them, they must not rate very high on the spiritual healers list. I did find [this recent article](http://www.randi.org/jr/051702.html) where a fellow decided to check out the spiritual healing himself. I especially like his description of thei “healers’” circular reasoning: > [@](#): > > Healing is achieved by the channeling of the body’s natural energies. > What energies are these? > Natural energies within the body. > Er, yes, but what kind of energies? > The body’s natural energies. > How are these energies detected? Can they be measured? > Yes, they show up in the body’s aura. > What is the aura? > It’s the aura of the body’s natural energies. > When pressed for scientific and clinical evidence, the group became very anecdotal. Sure, “research” had been done, and everything had been “proved,” but no one could say exactly where, when, or by whom. “Scientists have found” and “It has been proved” were dropped into the conversation as if they were phrases that were to be accepted on faith. The ancient Chinese were dragged into the argument frequently; they believed in "Chi"and such, so it must be true because everyone knows how advanced and infallible they were. Kirilian photography was brought up, along with the infamous “orbs of light.” ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2002, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healing-does-anyone-else-realize-it-exists/109511/10 "2002-05-17T18:41:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by occ \* > And while we’re all being skeptical, why is it that we ridicule centuries-old European medical practices, but fawn over centuries-old Eastern medical practices? What do you mean “we,” _kemosabe?_ I mean, I come from one of these “centuries-old Eastern” groups, and I’d much rather grab the Tylenon than the acupuncture pins when I have a headache… ---
**Author:** ![kitarak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kitarak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kitarak)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2002, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healing-does-anyone-else-realize-it-exists/109511/11 "2002-05-17T23:59:47Z")
Mmm… To be fair, IMO a lot of alternative therapies do work to some extent. They won’t cure a disease, or mend a broken bone, but what they will do is make you feel a lot better. I can’t speak for acupuncture, but I know aromatherapy is very helpful for dealing with stress headaches for example. Sure, it’s mostly psychological, but that doesn’t mean the effect isn’t real. I don’t believe in Chi, spiritual energy, etc. but what I do believe is that if you feel good then your body is better prepared to deal with whatever problems it might have. Yeah yeah, I only have anecdotal evidence. I know. 🙂 Basically it’s a case of “It works for me. The effects may well be psychological, but I don’t care.” Plus essential oils smell nice. 🙂 Incidentally, the reason that people are more inclined to accept ancient eastern medical practices over western ones is probably something to do with the respective society’s cultural/philosophical development at the time. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2002, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healing-does-anyone-else-realize-it-exists/109511/12 "2002-05-18T00:20:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by kitarak \* > \*\*Incidentally, the reason that people are more inclined to accept ancient eastern medical practices over western ones is probably something to do with the respective society’s cultural/philosophical development at the time. \*\* I always thought the reason was because the language barrier kept believers from understanding things too clearly, which is how they preferred. They’re more likely to listen to someone who says their _hegu points_ need to be aligned and their _chi_ rebalanced rather than the guy who yells “get off your lazy ass and get some exercise, you slob!” ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Blue\_Sky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d26b3c/32.png) [@Mr.Blue\_Sky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Blue_Sky)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2002, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healing-does-anyone-else-realize-it-exists/109511/13 "2002-05-18T01:20:59Z")
Shouldn’t this be in Great Debates? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2002, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healing-does-anyone-else-realize-it-exists/109511/14 "2002-05-18T02:11:34Z")
I’m guessing the OP wanted to hear anectdotes of spritual healing instad of skepticism, hence the IMHO choice. ---
**Author:** ![kitarak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kitarak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kitarak)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2002, 8:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healing-does-anyone-else-realize-it-exists/109511/15 "2002-05-18T08:11:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bryan Ekers \* > \*\* > I always thought the reason was because the language barrier kept believers from understanding things too clearly, which is how they preferred. They’re more likely to listen to someone who says their _hegu points_ need to be aligned and their _chi_ rebalanced rather than the guy who yells “get off your lazy ass and get some exercise, you slob!” \*\* Heh. I think you might have something there… And lets be honest, on the SDMB is it at all likely for something like this to be met by anything else than scepticism? Especially with an OP that says “Healing, does anyone else realise it exists???” rather than “Does anyone else believe in healing?” ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2002, 10:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healing-does-anyone-else-realize-it-exists/109511/16 "2002-05-18T10:35:31Z")
Feh, you couldn’t say things like “water is wet” without encountering skepticism on SDMB. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2002, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healing-does-anyone-else-realize-it-exists/109511/17 "2002-05-18T18:02:38Z")
> [@](#): > > A search of James Randi’s site revealed no matches for Bruyere or Daskalos I’m not familiar with either of these names, nor do I remember them from Randi’s book, [_The Faith Healers_](http://www.prometheusbooks.com/site/catalog/book_709.html), **the** definitive exposé on these charlatans. ---
**Author:** ![kniz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c37758/32.png) [@kniz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kniz)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2002, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healing-does-anyone-else-realize-it-exists/109511/18 "2002-05-18T18:41:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bryan Ekers \* > \*\*I’m guessing the OP wanted to hear anectdotes of spritual healing instad of skepticism, hence the IMHO choice. \*\* So, I’ll give you one. My wife was in a Junior Women’s Club many years ago in Cincinnati. It was a very successful club and they had built up the treasury, and decided to hire a speaker (this was in the late '60s when astrology, etc. was big stuff) just for the entertainment of club members. When we got there early there were lots of strangers waiting to get in. So hurriedly, we got out chairs (luckily there was room also) to accommodate the crowd. They charged $5.00 for non-members and it turned out to be the biggest money raising event they ever had. The reason was that someone had put a small announcement in the paper and the speaker was known as a healer. The front row was taken up by people that hoped to be healed. This did not prove anything to me except the fact that there are loads of people that are willing to agree with the OP. ---
**Author:** ![butter\_pie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/aca169/32.png) [@butter\_pie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/butter_pie)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2002, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healing-does-anyone-else-realize-it-exists/109511/19 "2002-05-19T05:59:34Z")
Hey, not everyone burning incense is some kind of hippie. :mad: ---
**Author:** ![kambuckta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/53a042/32.png) [@kambuckta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kambuckta)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2002, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healing-does-anyone-else-realize-it-exists/109511/20 "2002-05-19T06:29:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jinwicked \* > \*\*Hey, not everyone burning incense is some kind of hippie. :mad: \*\* And the evidence for _that_ is cited _WHERE?_ 😛 [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healing-does-anyone-else-realize-it-exists/109511.md?page=2)