This isn’t true at all. I work in a hospital where we offer patients the opportunity to participate in medical studies. MDs help develop medications all the time, and studies have specific MDs designated as medical monitors. Meanwhile, MDs are the ones administering the drug during the study to the participants. Many/most “scientists” have PhDs (or MD/PhDs) because medical training really isn’t oriented around new drug development.
When a double-blind study tests a new drug versus placebo, the company has to have very specific justifications or qualifications for its use, like there are no effective treatments currently approved, or participants may be on other treatments at the same time, or other treatments may be added as soon as symptoms reoccur/worsen (as applicable), or the treating doctor thinks it’s appropriate. All of the studies I’m currently working on have an active treatment being used at the same time as the study medication/placebo.
Also, all human research going on at a medical institution must be reviewed by a panel that specifically considers issues of safety and ethics for the participants, called an Institutional Review Board (IRB). I happen to be a member of the IRB where I work - and ethically cannot review a study that I am involved in - and we regularly ask for clarification on the safety of various studies. There have been studies that we have rejected as being not appropriate to be performed at our hospital - fortunately not many are that bad - and many others where we requested changes, especially to the consent form which discusses risks and requirements.
This is completely false. But Ferret Herder has done a better job than I ever could explaining why this makes no sense. Also, everyone should stop citing the Hippocratic oath as something doctors give a crap about. Most people are pretty surprised to learn what the original actually says.
This is also false. The idea that insurance companies are recommending cold showers is hilarious. Are the readers of this thread getting inundated with reminders from Blue Cross to take cold showers each day?
Cite for any of this? What exactly is a “vasoconstriction problem”? Will cold showers benefit Raynaud’s? Breuger’s disease? Scleroderma? Patients with recent microsurgical arterial repairs? Peripheral vascular disease? Cold intolerance after trauma? What is “low blood pressure”, exactly? If my blood pressure is “low” what do I want it to be, exactly? I hope if people are hypotensive they aren’t treating themselves with showers. Please, I’m all ears, tell me how cold showers are going to help these conditions and cite your sources. What is “a weak immune system” and how are you defining that? Will HIV/AIDS patient’s benefit from this therapy? How does the Kneipp method quantifiably affect immune function? Any evidence for any of this woo?
I usually let threads like these die the death they deserve but this is essentially providing medical advice without qualification, and that pisses me off. Either back up your claims or go away.
I’d like to point out that health insurers also have an incentive to provide cheap placebos. It’s why some insurers cover acupuncture and other woo, they are cheaper than surgery/drugs. If an insurers pays for your acupuncture, you will delay more expensive treatments, and possibly heal on your own.
It may be hilarious, but it is absolutely true, and I must say it was rather supercilious of you to dismiss that claim out of hand when a little Googling could turn up myriad examples. For example, TK, the second-largest statutory health insurance company in Germany, supports Kneipp’s cold therapy, and produces literature for patients explaining and recommending it. I’ll bet you can find similar web pages from any other major German health insurance provider.
Um, I said “health insurances”. What has the anti-alcoholic group to do with it?
And I said “Advice on health”. This doesn’t mean “reminders”.
I’m not a doctor, and I certainly don’t know the correct english medical terms. If vasoconstriction is the wrong term, then I don’t know what the correct term in English would be. It’s what varicose veins are part of, and where doctors have reported success.
Moreover, these tips are given to the lay persons, so they are on purpose phrased in easy, non-medical language.
If you don’t know what low blood pressure in medical terms refers to, then I’m not going to bother explaining anything else. It’s a known medical problem. Just because high blood pressure gets all the news, doesn’t mean that low blood pressure isn’t also a medical problem that needs treatment.
I’m not playing your dumb cite game. Just because you people believe that any treatment that doesn’t involved medication or uses the word “natural” is bogus, and refuse to accept any facts in regards to that doesn’t change the experience of thousands of doctors here. Just because you ignore and dismiss any research by German doctors doesn’t invalidate their findings that in many cases, low blood pressure is raised just as well with cold-hot showers and sports than with medications which might have side effects.
If you were interested in facts and cites, you wouldn’t bait like this. Who equates a weak immune system with AIDS? A honest person knows what a weak immune system is: when you often get colds and thus want to strenghten your immune system in general. So you do sports, eat more veggies, and do cold-hot showers and sauna, which stimulates the blood vessels and the circulation system. Since you are not honestly interested, but already know it’s woo, why should I spend time with cites?
Um, I didn’t provide medical advice at all. I provided examples for the OP of how and when it’s used seriously because the OP claimed to be seriously interested despite his disparaging remarks. I did point out that you need to know how to apply Kneipp properly.
But of course, I should’ve known better - you people aren’t really interested in evidence counter to what you already believe to be true.
Again, I’m talking about German Health insurers. They are not allowed to kick you out once you get sick. So letting one illness develop into a serious one which will cost more is contra to what the insurances want. They pay for a bunch of preventive screenings, after all.
As for acupuncture, I know that the Dopers believe that acupuncture is woo and therefore will deny any evidence. Nevertheless, three big insurance companies (among them the AOK, the biggest single insurer) did a study with over 1 million of patients about using acupuncture instead of pain meds and found that it worked satisfactory enough to save the expensive pain meds (with side effects; and making the patients happier) so now it’s part of the officially approved treatment canon.
Re-read my post. You are wildly misunderstanding or misrepresenting what I wrote about how placebos are typically tested and how medical research is done.
As ExcitedIdiot said, insurers have an incentive to provide cheap placebos. Nothing you wrote above contradicts this; in fact, it probably supports it.
Did you even read that link? That page gives a brief layperson’s overview of thermal treatments in general and only mentions Kneipp therapy as one example of such. They point out that hot and cold are often used in the treatment of pain, aching joints, etc. It doesn’t recommend daily cold showers and it certainly doesn’t make outlandish claims about how cold showers cure a wide array of totally unrelated medical conditions. It also makes mention of the conditions where cryotherapy is actually helpful. To quote their (translated) website:
To avoid swelling shortly after injury (sprain, bruise) and operations
In acute rheumatism relapses, connective tissue diseases and autoimmune diseases
For fever
For paralysis
None of these are controversial (I can’t resist: Actually some of them sort are. There’s very little evidence that cryotherapy does a damn thing long term for soft tissue injuries. It does make you feel a little better though, so it’s still recommended.) and they are all standard practice in the United States and the world over. That’s not the claim I said was ridiculous. The ridiculous claim was as follows:
“real doctors here as well as health advisors like the health insurances* recommend cold showers.”
That’s like me saying “doctors in American as well as health insurances recommend ice packs.” Well sure, for a sprained wrist. That doesn’t mean you should use one every day and it will cure your peripheral vascular disease. Although to be fair its not hard to find a doctor that will recommend all sorts of wacky crap. Many of them acknowledge the lack of hard evidence when they recommend such therapies, though some do not.
But that’s just the silly part. Let’s get to the dangerous part. Also from TK’s website: caution is advised in circulatory and sensory disturbances (sensory deprivation), or sensitivity to cold, for example due to low blood pressure, underweight or hypothyroidism. TK is advising against cryotherapy in the setting of circulatory disturbances (such as vasoconstrictive disorders), low blood pressure, and hypothyroidism, which is commonly characterized by low energy levels. Which is the precisely the opposite of what constanze was recommending.
Some other points of flat out misinformation:
This right here is incredibly annoying because “low blood pressure” isn’t a medical term. Do you mean orthostatic hypotension? There are important differences between that guy has orthostatic hypotension, that guy has transient episodes of hypotension, and that guy is hypotensive.
Huh. Not my area of expertise but I couldn’t find a single paper in any language describing the treatment of orthostatic hypotension using Kneipp therapy/cryotherapy/showers of any sort. Subjecting someone with that condition to hot and cold showers sound incredibly dangerous and borders on malpractice in my opinion. But could you find even one shred of evidence that this actually does anything?
I dunno, I think autoimmune deficiency fits the definition of weak immune system pretty well. “I get colds a lot” isn’t a medical diagnosis. Maybe you have an actual immunodeficiency. Maybe you’re under a lot of stress and have elevated cortisol levels. Maybe you have bad hand hygiene habits. Maybe its cold season. If you start taking showers you’ll get fewer colds in a few months. Amazing!
Varicose veins are not a symptom of vasoconstrictive disease. The idea that you could make them go away with a shower of any temperature makes no sense. Cryotherapy may have some utility in venous stasis but it has no effect on varicosities.
Well this is a fundamental misunderstanding of the purpose of IRB’s and clinical trials. The short answer is, the reason you are doing a study in the first place is to find out if the treatment is effective or not. You don’t know before hand. You may suspect, or feel strongly, or have had a lot of personal success with it, but that’s not evidence.
Okay. I think I’ll stop here. For the record, has any ever said this in support of something that wasn’t overflowing with woo?
The idea that American doctors would be biased against European research is also strange. When it comes to publishing papers, the major names in any given field already know each other and correspond/host meetings/organize international conferences/visit other countries constantly. For example, the AO foundation is the leading organization devoted to the study of fracture repair worldwide and every orthopedic surgeon is drilled with the core AO principles of fracture fixation from the day they arrive. The AO was founded in Switzerland and stands for Arbeitsgemeinschaft für Osteosynthesefragen, or the German for Association for the Study of Internal Fixation. The Chinese flap surgery is so named because it was developed by surgeons in Shaighai and has become a standard surgical option the world over in the last 20 years. Arguably the world’s best microsurgeon is in Taipei, and a sizable fraction young microsurgeons in the states have done fellowships with him.
I could go on but eh… this is turning into homeopathy 2.0. I’m out. I’m punting to Ferret Herder on this one.
Well, if that’s the case, I retract my comments. I thought you were objecting to entirety of her sentence, which included the bit about Kneipp therapy.
That said, it wouldn’t surprise me if major German health insurers really did recommend things like cold showers. They’ve been known to advocate, or at least agree to pay for, all sorts of harmless quackery. Acupuncture and homeopathy are two notable examples; cold showers would be right up their alley, especially seeing as they don’t cost the company anything.
FWIW, here’s what AOK (the largest statutory health insurance provider in Germany) has to say about cold showers and varicose veins:[
](https://www.aok.de/bundesweit/gesundheit/59717.php?id=4057)Translated, “Regular exercise of the calf muscles with the legs raised, cold showers, and swimming in cold water (up to 27°C) strengthens the muscles of the vein walls and prevents rapid progression of the disease.”
As with everything else I’ve posted here, I make no claims as to the medical accuracy of this information. I’m merely drawing attention to its existence.