# Health Care a right? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 31, 2008, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-a-right/470455 "2008-10-31T16:42:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2008, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-a-right/470455/61 "2008-12-10T01:09:40Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > I’ll jump on board with universal health care when someone points out to me how to solve the free-rider problem Free riders are mostly a problem for countries _without_ a public healthcare system, like the USA. See : I live in France. When I make money, some of it is taken away to fund healthcare, whether I like it or not. If I need healthcare, I’m certainly not a free rider. Now, if I were living in the USA, I could choose not to pay for an insurance (and I know, if only from reading this board, that some people do exactly that). Now, what is going to happen if I need healthcare? I won’t be left to die in a dark alley. I will receive it. At the expense of other tax payers (maybe I’ll have to pay for it eventually, but probably not if it’s costly enough and I don’t have much in the way of assets). _That_ is free riding, and you do pay for it as an American citizen. Now, I suspect that what you have in mind is people abusing from the system. But healthcare is precisely a service people are not likely to abuse from. If you hand out cars for free, plenty of people will take one even if they don’t really need one, or even have no use for one. On the other hand, you’d have a hard time signing me up for a free heart transplant I don’t need. Actually, it’s difficult enough to have people sign up for free preventive care (say free check-ups) that would benefit them, because most people don’t really enjoy seeing a doctor or going to an hospital when they feel fine. Now, there might be some people abusing. Say, seeing their doctor every other day for no real reason at all. But, ignoring the fact that said doctor would probably have an issue with this behaviour, ignoring also the fact that this would be at worst a marginal expense in the grand scheme of things, do you somehow think that this would be an issue only when there’s a public healthcare system? Hmm.. No. In your system, the same person would show up at the emergency room if she hadn’t a private insurance (at your expense as a taxpayer) or would also see her doctor if she had one (ultimately at your expense too if you have the same insurer). Your “free rider” problem isn’t a problem that needs solving. Well…as I said, except if you _don’t_ have an universal healthcare system, hence have people who choose not to pay for an insurance even though they could have afforded one. So, I’m going to throw back the question at you : since you don’t support an universal health care system, can you “point out to me how to solve the free-rider problem” ? ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2008, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-a-right/470455/62 "2008-12-10T01:16:53Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > AIDS was pretty big. And more importantly, the existence of an extensive and functional health care system is precisely the reason why epidemics are mostly unheard of in first world countries. Remove it, and you’ll get again malaria and cholera outbreaks in short order. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2008, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-a-right/470455/63 "2008-12-10T01:25:24Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > It’s really very simple, I’m kinda surprised you need help understanding the difference. Thinks like fire and police benefit the entire community, so the entire community is responsible for paying for them. People need help understanding the difference because it doesn’t exist. Why is keeping somebody’s house from burning down the taxpayers’ job, while keeping somebody from dying from the resulting burns is the job of the individual? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2008, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-a-right/470455/64 "2008-12-10T02:51:31Z")
Besides, we already have a form of government health care, in Medicare. I doubt my grandmother would have had her 90th birthday last week if not for Medicare. (And ANYONE who begrudes her that will have to deal will with ME. NOBODY messes with my Gramma.) I was originally eligible for Medicaid after I got out of the hospital back in Feb. of 2007, until some of my bills (very few, though), were paid. Now most of my paycheck goes towards my meds. Why the HELL do you think I still live at home? When I got my job, I thought I’d finally be able to move out and on my own. Nope, no-can-do. And I’m not covered through work. I’m paying all of my medical expenses out of pocket. Are there people who abuse the assistance program? Hell yes. But you’re going to have that no matter WHAT. I doubt if you had a program where everyone is covered that you’d have to worry about that so much-since we’d all be “free-riders”, so to speak. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2008, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-a-right/470455/65 "2008-12-10T03:24:08Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > No. > > For me reasonable access to affordable health care falls under the category of things that are “reasonable expectations” in a modern Western country. They are not rights, but they are still important. Gay marriage is another thing that people bandy about as a “right” when it is nothing of the sort. It is however, a reasonable expectation. Abortion falls into this category, although it is currently misclassified as a right due to a poor Supreme Court decision. We have very few actual rights, and that is absolutely correct. Rights are things that are so basic, so fundamental, that if they are denied, it’s worth the full faith and credit of the Federal government to intervene and restore, up to and including military intervention. Does anyone really think that it’s worth going to war so that a woman can kill her unborn child, or so that gay people (or straight people for that matter) can get a piece of paper that says they’re married? Absurd. Health care is the same way. Put this on your calendar: I pretty much agree with Weirddave on this. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2008, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-a-right/470455/66 "2008-12-10T03:39:43Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > Could you imagine if the police operated as private, for-profit organizations, only seeking justice for those who can afford to purchase it? I do believe health care is one of those basic issues fundamental to the well-being of the people which should not be in the hands of for-profit companies. This is the real issue. Not so much whether it’s a “right” in some quasi-religious sense of moralization, but the consequences of different policies, & what that means morally. I think that with one or two exceptions, the reasons we require publicly funded police departments & consider them preferable to private security also apply to health care. Having a single service provider means not having to check to see who has the account in an emergency. It also means that resources can be pooled collectively in one system. A tax funding system can be used to keep the basic services going; fee-for-service systems sometimes have to raise prices to keep operating, which lowers demand, & screws them up further. Will there be rationing? Sure. But it’s an adaptable structure. Now, if you object to those without funds being treated–as an immoral policy–fine, make that argument. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2008, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-a-right/470455/67 "2008-12-10T03:55:07Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Though I’m inclined to agree with you, I’m going to play devil’s advocate and ask: what if pooling all our money together just means that the whole society goes bankrupt? > > Unlike food, it’s a lot harder to define what is meant by adequate health care, or enough to keep people from “starving.” It’s theoretically possible for everyone to have enough food, but how much health care is “enough”? That’s one of the reasons why I think making it so that no one goes without adequate health care is a trickier problem than making it so that no one goes hungry. Well, one attraction of socialized medicine is that monetary costs can be be contained. Citizens don’t have to pay high premiums to a for-profit provider to get good emergency care & good dental. Also, the effects of market rationing don’t go completely out the window. The government isn’t going to spend the whole tax base on experimental liver-regeneration drugs when it has agricultural expenses, a military, etc. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2008, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-a-right/470455/68 "2008-12-10T03:59:22Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > Isn’t this why we have Medicaid and Medicare? > > … > > I’ll jump on board with universal health care when someone points out to me how to solve the free-rider problem and explains why Medicaid/care aren’t “compassionate” enough already. So you’d accept extending Medicaid/Medicare coverage to everyone? Did you know that at present, not everyone qualifies for these? If you make to much & are not aged, you get jack unless a free clinic is lucky enough to have the funding to help you. Why not dump the age & income limits? ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2008, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-a-right/470455/69 "2008-12-10T04:10:35Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > I can understand the Ebenezer Scrooge attitude of “let them die, and decrease the surplus population.” I think it’s evil, but I understand it. But our current system is just a half-ass compromise between Scrooge and UHC. Our society needs to shit or get off the pot, so to speak. This is largely why I’m for single-payer UHC. I dislike the neither-fish-nor-flesh compromises that Americans end up with that don’t make a lot of sense from either side. As a Deep Ecology moralist, I have twinges of quasi-Malthusian sympathies. Excess population dying? All right! On the other hand: Excess population taking out their rage at an unsympathetic system & an “unjust world” by poaching & undermining the commons? Unacceptable. I live in a democracy, not an absolute monarchy. Even if I don’t believe in human rights as absolute, those with power are the populace, & they do so believe. I must stand for treating people decently so that they see the world as on their side rather than against them. Only in this way do I have hope that this country will defend the common natural resource base. > [@](#): > > There’s no divine edict from on high as to what is an individual responsibility and what’s a societal responsibility. The Founding Fathers were simply human beings. Not Gods. They were members of the rich aristocracy and set things up to benefit the aristocracy. Too right. Fetishization of the Founding Fathers is daft. And I think a lot of those who go one about rights put words in the FF’s mouths. ---
**Author:** ![drpepper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/8baadc/32.png) [@drpepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drpepper)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2008, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-a-right/470455/70 "2008-12-10T04:57:20Z")
A good working definition of ‘right’ that I’ve heard which seems to serve well for purposes of debates like this is: _an automatic claim on the resources of others_. Public education, police protection, access to the courts – all of these fit that definition fairly well. Healthcare, minimum levels of housing, food – I think everyone agrees that these are certainly _important_, and they are to a certain degree a certain metric of evaluating societies… but there is more hesitancy when they are classified as “automatic claims” (ie, under any circumstances) on the resources of others. This is when things get dicy, and, as someone said before: the devil is in the details. ---
**Author:** ![MadPansy64](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dc4da7/32.png) [@MadPansy64](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MadPansy64)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2008, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-a-right/470455/71 "2008-12-12T03:10:46Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > If you really want everyone to have basic health care, I actually think it could be counterproductive to think of it as a right. If it’s a right, it’s something people have naturally, unless some oppressor has come along and taken it away. So, if someone’s being denied their “right” to basic health care, it puts us in adversarial mode, so that we spend our energies trying to find and fight the bad guys who are depriving people of that right, rather than focusing on the social and economic problems of how we see that people’s needs are met. If I had a rebuttal to your post, I would have a plan with a reasonable chance of solving the problem. I would also have a _fabulous_ job as Healthcare Czar. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-a-right/470455.md?page=3)