# Health care horror story #13848732 **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 26, 2009, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-horror-story-13848732/522612 "2009-12-26T08:01:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-horror-story-13848732/522612/321 "2010-01-06T07:41:22Z")
> [@Meyer6](#): > > But you cannot argue with biology. Humans are _for_ reproduction. So is every other speices on the planet. The fact that we’ve found other things to do with our time is immaterial - a few thousands of years of culture is nothing compared to millenia of hard-wired instinct. You can howl into the wind all you want, but that’s a fact, and is not up for discussion. Do you really believe this? That biology is destiny? That every woman must have at least one child or - or what? Wow, you think I’m a tool, and then you come up with this garbage. Go study some biology and you’ll find that even in baser animals, not all members have this hard-wired instinct to reproduce. So it should be no surprise that there are a large number of humans who don’t have your hard-wired instinct, as well as a large number who do have it but actually use their brains and make the decision to not reproduce for various good reasons. People are not bunnies. ---
**Author:** ![Meyer6](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cc9497/32.png) [@Meyer6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meyer6)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-horror-story-13848732/522612/322 "2010-01-06T08:10:35Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Do you really believe this? That biology is destiny? That every woman must have at least one child or - or what? > > Wow, you think I’m a tool, and then you come up with this garbage. Go study some biology and you’ll find that even in baser animals, not all members have this hard-wired instinct to reproduce. So it should be no surprise that there are a large number of humans who don’t have your hard-wired instinct, as well as a large number who do have it but actually use their brains and make the decision to not reproduce for various good reasons. > > People are not bunnies. I didn’t say all women should have a child. I said that reproduction was a base instinct and such railing against it is a pointless waste of time. If you could read properly you would note that I said I don’t have or want children, so it’s not about me. And I have a Masters in Biology with a published thesis in animal population structures, so I’ll take the scientific and academic advice of a high-school graduate housewife with all the respect it deserves. ---
**Author:** ![kambuckta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/53a042/32.png) [@kambuckta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kambuckta)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-horror-story-13848732/522612/323 "2010-01-06T08:18:13Z")
> [@Meyer6](#): > > You can howl into the wind all you want, but that’s a fact, and is not up for discussion. Ya reckon? With **curlcoat**? Hehehe. Good luck with THAT mate. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-horror-story-13848732/522612/324 "2010-01-06T12:49:23Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Snort. As I said, there simply aren’t any group policies that don’t cover pregnancy and childbirth, and group policies are far cheaper than private ones. So this is a matter of cost, and you just don’t want to spend the money to maintain your priniciples? You apparently have something else you would rather spend your money on. Your vast sense of entitlement is astonishing when viewed against your parsimony towards others. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-horror-story-13848732/522612/325 "2010-01-06T14:14:52Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Immaterial in a population that is already too big. And in some areas, such as [California](http://recenter.tamu.edu/data/pops/pops06.htm), population continues to grow, with more than half a million babies born each year for the last 17 years. [Washington](http://recenter.tamu.edu/data/pops/pops53.htm) is also growing, tho at a slower rate. That was a joke, right? Our population is too big? Other than Australia and Scandinavia we have just about the lowest population density in the developed world. In fact, our population density is roughly on a par with the Congo, most of which is completely uninhabitable. ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-horror-story-13848732/522612/326 "2010-01-06T17:55:11Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > To muse on the topic, I wonder two things, vis a vis the opinions of those opposed to any form of UHC: > > 1. What they think of stories such as those in [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=546121). What, if anything, do these kinds of stories say about the system currently in place, and/or the people involved. > snip What? No response to the other thread from **cc**? ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-horror-story-13848732/522612/327 "2010-01-06T19:29:26Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > and group policies are far cheaper than private ones. Why yes. Yes they are. Baby steps. Baby steps towards UHC. We’ll get you there eventually. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2010, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-horror-story-13848732/522612/328 "2010-01-07T06:02:32Z")
> [@Meyer6](#): > > I didn’t say all women should have a child. I said that reproduction was a base instinct and such railing against it is a pointless waste of time. I am not railing against reproduction, I’m railing against mindless reproduction and against almost every parent expecting others to help them pay for and raise their kids. You act like just because most people have an instinct to have kids, it’s ok for them to do it whenever they want, as often as they want. Whether its a good idea or not. People have base instincts to do all kinds of things, but since we are (supposedly) civilized humans we tend to ignore or put off those instincts if acting on them at the time is counterproductive. Except when it comes to babies - for some reason, every pregnancy is greeted with bunnies and rainbows, no matter what the situation of the mother is. > [@](#): > > And I have a Masters in Biology with a published thesis in animal population structures, so I’ll take the scientific and academic advice of a high-school graduate housewife with all the respect it deserves. Huh. And in all of that study, you never stumbled across anything about some animals who don’t reproduce? Due to population stress or dominance from others? Huh. > [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > So this is a matter of cost, and you just don’t want to spend the money to maintain your priniciples? You apparently have something else you would rather spend your money on. Your vast sense of entitlement is astonishing when viewed against your parsimony towards others. That’s kind of the point, isn’t it? I have something else I’d rather spend _my_ money on, rather than on random strangers. However, I don’t see that wanting to be able to keep whatever is left from the taxes we already pay is a “vast sense of entitlement”. > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > That was a joke, right? Our population is too big? Other than Australia and Scandinavia we have just about the lowest population density in the developed world. In fact, our population density is roughly on a par with the Congo, most of which is completely uninhabitable. And yet, we have chronic unemployment and the cost of living any place half way desirable is sky rocketing. The fact that our population density in Alaska, North Dakota and Montana is way low makes you think that it isn’t very high in Hawaii, California, Florida and any place else they don’t have shit for weather? Having just about the lowest population density in the developed world doesn’t really mean much when so much of our population is clustered in the areas where the weather doesn’t try to kill you. > [@Enderw24](#): > > Why yes. Yes they are. > > Baby steps. Baby steps towards UHC. We’ll get you there eventually. Hardly. Preferring a group policy from a private insurance company is no where near wanting to be dependent on the government for my health care! :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2010, 9:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-horror-story-13848732/522612/329 "2010-01-07T09:43:32Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Huh. And in all of that study, you never stumbled across anything about some animals who don’t reproduce? Due to population stress or dominance from others? Huh. What are you saying? You’re feeling stressed out and dominated? > [@](#): > > However, I don’t see that wanting to be able to keep whatever is left from the taxes we already pay is a “vast sense of entitlement”. Even in California with it’s legendary high taxes, the tax rate is much lower than many other nations. Besides which - if you are so freakin’ miserable in California _why do you stay?_ There are places in the US with significantly lower taxes. You can even choose to remain in dessicated, overheated places like, say, Texas, you don’t have to go to Alaska. > [@](#): > > Having just about the lowest population density in the developed world doesn’t really mean much when so much of our population is clustered in the areas where the weather doesn’t try to kill you. On the other hand, where I live we don’t have annual wildfires. Weather trying to kill you? Get real - you live in California, where the _ground_ tries to kill you with all those earthquakes. ---
**Author:** ![boytyperanma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@boytyperanma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boytyperanma)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2010, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-horror-story-13848732/522612/330 "2010-01-07T11:32:09Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > On the other hand, where I live we don’t have annual wildfires. Weather trying to kill you? Get real - you live in California, where the _ground_ tries to kill you with all those earthquakes. You got a point there. It is another instance of **Curlcoat** leeching off our society. She chooses to live in an area more prone to natural disaster. Her choose to live in a state that requires water and electricity be brought in from other states unfairly burdens the resources of the rest of the country. She is just choosing to live there for personal reasons. She is too lazy to look up and research where she would cost other Americans the least. I’m sick of my tax dollars going to lazy people like herself that choose to leech off our society. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2010, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-horror-story-13848732/522612/331 "2010-01-07T17:57:23Z")
> [@boytyperanma](#): > > You got a point there. It is another instance of **Curlcoat** leeching off our society. She chooses to live in an area more prone to natural disaster. Her choose to live in a state that requires water and electricity be brought in from other states unfairly burdens the resources of the rest of the country. She is just choosing to live there for personal reasons. She is too lazy to look up and research where she would cost other Americans the least. I’m sick of my tax dollars going to lazy people like herself that choose to leech off our society. She should come with me and live in Mississippi. She’d fit right in. She could complain about all the negroes leeching off the system - you know, by doing stuff like standing in front of her in the welfare line. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2010, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-horror-story-13848732/522612/332 "2010-01-07T18:01:20Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > You can even choose to remain in dessicated, overheated places like, say, Texas, you don’t have to go to Alaska. On the other hand, don’t let us stop you. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2010, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-horror-story-13848732/522612/333 "2010-01-07T18:35:46Z")
_(psst!_ I actually want to go to Alaska one day - don’t suggest it to her. Maybe… Utah instead. Yeah, Utah, that’s it.) ---
**Author:** ![spinky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@spinky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spinky)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2010, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-horror-story-13848732/522612/334 "2010-01-07T23:24:45Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > I am not railing against reproduction, I’m railing against mindless reproduction and against almost every parent expecting others to help them pay for and raise their kids. Ok, look, rail against having to pay taxes for public schools all you want – that’s your own shortsighted political battle you can fight in another thread if you want – but don’t rail against me “expecting all the other people on my insurance policy to pay more just because I decided I wanted to have a baby.” I **don’t** “expect” anything of the sort. All I “expect” is that my plan covers what I pay for it to cover, and childbirth is one of the things I pay for. If you’ve decided that same plan makes the most financial sense for you, then hooray for you. Buy into it or don’t, but don’t act like we **expect** you to help subsidize it just because you have chosen to. You do it of your own free will, and whether you do it or not makes no difference to me. Honestly, what do you think the impact would be on my premiums if all the childfree zealots in the US formed an association to purchase a no-childbirth group policy and left us birthin’ freeloaders to fend for ourselves? It would be minuscule. (You, on the other hand, might see a pretty good savings.) ---
**Author:** ![Meyer6](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cc9497/32.png) [@Meyer6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meyer6)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2010, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-horror-story-13848732/522612/335 "2010-01-08T08:01:46Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Huh. And in all of that study, you never stumbled across anything about some animals who don’t reproduce? Due to population stress or dominance from others? Huh. There are animals who don’t reproduce under certain circumstances, but if you think modern humans in North America fall into those circumstances you are an idiot (surprise, surprise). Please refrain from trying to support your hateful stance by appealing to science, you uneducated moron. Also, a reproduction rate of 2.1 doesn’t mean that > [@](#): > > People live too long these days, so by the time the average couple dies, they have created 2 kids, 4 grandkids and probably 16 great grand kids. because people do not self-fertilize. Each pair of people creates 2 new people, then those two find two partners and the _four_ of them create 4 new people. This is not exponential growth, dumbass. ---
**Author:** ![Meyer6](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cc9497/32.png) [@Meyer6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meyer6)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2010, 8:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-horror-story-13848732/522612/336 "2010-01-08T08:11:12Z")
Also, > [@curlcoat](#): > > it is very selfish of you to expect all the other people on your insurance policy to pay more just because you decided you wanted to have a baby > [@meyer6](#): > > you just said it was selfish for people to use their insurance to cover such things (i.e. childbirth) > [@curlcoat](#): > > No, I didn’t. Are you really this dumb, or are you going to admit to being an outright liar? ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2010, 9:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-horror-story-13848732/522612/337 "2010-01-08T09:00:29Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Even in California with it’s legendary high taxes, the tax rate is much lower than many other nations. What, you mean those nations that have a UH? > [@](#): > > Besides which - if you are so freakin’ miserable in California _why do you stay?_ There are places in the US with significantly lower taxes. You can even choose to remain in dessicated, overheated places like, say, Texas, you don’t have to go to Alaska. :rolleyes: I never said it was “freakin’ miserable” in California. For one thing, it isn’t dessicated or overheated - certainly nothing like Texas. > [@](#): > > On the other hand, where I live we don’t have annual wildfires. Weather trying to kill you? Get real - you live in California, where the _ground_ tries to kill you with all those earthquakes. Again, you should educate yourself before you pop off. We don’t have annual wildfires where I live either, since those are fairly restricted to certain areas. Same with the earthquakes. It’s kind of like living in a tornado area, or where the Mississippi floods - easy enough to avoid if you pay attention. > [@boytyperanma](#): > > She chooses to live in an area more prone to natural disaster. Her choose to live in a state that requires water and electricity be brought in from other states unfairly burdens the resources of the rest of the country. You need to study up too. I live in an area less prone to natural disaster than almost any other state - no tornados, hurricanes, floods, ice storms, snow, poisonous bugs/animals, alligators, 90 percent humidity - what have I missed? Also, our water comes totally from the Santa Ana river, which gets it’s water from the San Bernardino mountains. I have no idea where the electricity comes from, but there is a nuclear power plant not far away. As for burdening the resources of the rest of the country - if any state is selling water or power to California to the detriment of their own residents, how is that the fault of California? > [@](#): > > She is too lazy to look up and research where she would cost other Americans the least. I’m sick of my tax dollars going to lazy people like herself that choose to leech off our society. Uh, what? I’m costing the taxpayer _much_ less than most people. I get no tax kick backs for children, I sent no children to public schools, I have never filed for bankruptcy, I didn’t need to have my mortgage bailed out nor did I get any big tax credit for buying this house. I have never been on any sort of welfare and I took a grand total of three months of unemployment checks over the 35+ years I worked. As for lazy, well it isn’t me that is spending an employers time posted in here… > [@ntucker](#): > > but don’t rail against me “expecting all the other people on my insurance policy to pay more just because I decided I wanted to have a baby.” I **don’t** “expect” anything of the sort. All I “expect” is that my plan covers what I pay for it to cover, and childbirth is one of the things I pay for. You wouldn’t have any problem with paying a significantly higher premium if by some chance the insurance companies started carving out pregnancy as they carve out all other optional treatments? > [@](#): > > You do it of your own free will, and whether you do it or not makes no difference to me. No, it isn’t of free will since I have no choice, and whether we do or not makes a big difference to you. Somebody has to be paying in more than they are taking out you know. > [@](#): > > Honestly, what do you think the impact would be on my premiums if all the childfree zealots in the US formed an association to purchase a no-childbirth group policy and left us birthin’ freeloaders to fend for ourselves? It would be minuscule. (You, on the other hand, might see a pretty good savings.) There would be a big difference - you should look up how many people out there are currently choosing to forgo children. The fact you call them zealots shows how little you know. > [@Meyer6](#): > > There are animals who don’t reproduce under certain circumstances, but if you think modern humans in North America fall into those circumstances you are an idiot. Oh, I see. There are no humans in North America who are overcrowded? Stressed by dominance? > [@](#): > > because people do not self-fertilize. Each pair of people creates 2 new people, then those two find two partners and the _four_ of them create 4 new people. This is not exponential growth, dumbass. _You_ are being the dumbass, or you are choosing to ignore the fact that since people live much longer than when their children start reproducing, that means that there is more than replacement reproduction going on. If a sample reproduces at an average age of 20 and live to an average age of 80, by the time the original pair dies, there are 14 people taking their place, even if each only had two kids. Needing 14 houses, 14 jobs, at least 14 cars and who knows how much in the way of food, clothing, power etc. > [@](#): > > Are you really this dumb, or are you going to admit to being an outright liar? Try reading. “expect all the other people on your insurance policy to pay more just because you decided you wanted to have a baby” does not equal “selfish for people to use their insurance to cover such things (i.e. childbirth)”. Here, I’ll help. The first has to do with the cost of premiums, the second has to do with paying on claims. ---
**Author:** ![Doughbag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Doughbag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doughbag)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2010, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-horror-story-13848732/522612/338 "2010-01-08T13:10:19Z")
All I can say, thanks that I live in Ireland and not the US. These horror stories sound to me, like they are happening in 3rd World countries. Friends of us gave birth to a baby with some really nasty birth-defects. Both where Nurses, lower middle class working people, yet a specialized hospital for children was not a financial decision or a problem, even though they did not have a health insurance plan. They did not have to loose their house and all their savings. The US had a chance to change the life of the middle class a couple of months ago for the better, but they didn’t like or wanted Universal Health care. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2010, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-horror-story-13848732/522612/339 "2010-01-08T13:32:04Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Try reading. “expect all the other people on your insurance policy to pay more just because you decided you wanted to have a baby” does not equal “selfish for people to use their insurance to cover such things (i.e. childbirth)”. Here, I’ll help. The first has to do with the cost of premiums, the second has to do with paying on claims. But all those “other people” are there voluntarily; they read the policy, they know the terms, and they chose that coverage. Who are you to tell “other people” that they don’t have the right to buy the insurance they want to? If you don’t like it, don’t pay the premiums. It is as simple as that. You don’t get to impose your twisted ideology on others who chose to buy the coverage, and insurance companies are under no obligation to offer you insurance that is to your liking. Why do you hate the free market so much? ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2010, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-horror-story-13848732/522612/340 "2010-01-08T17:17:28Z")
I checked this thread to see whether Curlcoat’s heart has grown three sizes, and she’s come out in favor of UHC. Nope, hasn’t happened yet. 😃 Keep trying folks. I gave up a long time ago, but I admire anyone who will continue this [Sisyphean](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sisyphus#.22Sisyphean_task.22_or_.22Sisyphean_challenge.22) challenge. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-horror-story-13848732/522612.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-horror-story-13848732/522612.md?page=18)