# Health Care Reform & Lieberman **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 14, 2009, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-reform-lieberman/521232 "2009-12-14T17:06:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-reform-lieberman/521232/81 "2009-12-15T19:55:16Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But just to play devil’s advocate for a moment, the argument seems to be that Lieberman is not acting out of any principle except that advancement of the interests of Lieberman. So a path that would lead to result adverse to his interests doesn’t seem like the kind of thing such a person would do. So then, to speculate, Lieberman has calculated that the odds are, that the insurance companies he’s voting on behalf of will reward him more greatly than the pussy Democrats will punish him. Or he doesn’t associate any value with caucusing with the Democrats, so his risk is negligible. Seems pretty simple. ---
**Author:** ![holmes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e95f7d/32.png) [@holmes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/holmes)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-reform-lieberman/521232/82 "2009-12-15T20:08:19Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Well, don’t get me wrong – no one could possibly find a hole in that tightly cogent argument. > > But just to play devil’s advocate for a moment, the argument seems to be that Lieberman is not acting out of any principle except that advancement of the interests of Lieberman. So a path that would lead to result adverse to his interests doesn’t seem like the kind of thing such a person would do. > > Perhaps I’m missing some of the definitional subtleties of cob nobbler hobgoblins. That’s the thing, if he’s a “spite merchant”, and this is all speculation, then all that matters is screwing over the people he feels has wronged him, which he’s done. If you get pleasure out of watching your enemies nash their teeth in impotence, then Joe’s gotta be on his tenth pair of underwear by now. The Dems haven’t punished him, because they **need** him. He knows this, so he can piss on them from a great height and the Dems have to bathe in it. Plus as you may be aware, whenever he pulls this stuff, the medical stocks shoot up, enriching him and his masters. So how is this adverse to his interests? The progressives are calling him bad names? He may lose his chairmanships? Maybe if he runs, his seat? I don’t think he cares, he just wants to kick them and keep kicking them until his leg gets tired and he gets paid. Win-Win. ---
**Author:** ![tumbleddown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@tumbleddown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tumbleddown)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-reform-lieberman/521232/83 "2009-12-15T20:39:05Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The big problem with driving a car is that you kindle flame, as **Polycarp** suggests. For this reason you can’t even turn on an electric light, because of the spark that leaps across the switch connection. It’s not the creation of the spark that’s at issue with light switches (and elevator buttons and opening the refrigerator door and having the light come on) it’s the completion of the circuit, which is construed as an act of building. Lieberman, when voting on shabbos, engages in the act of building enmity between himself and all working people. He’s a self-serving traitor. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-reform-lieberman/521232/84 "2009-12-15T20:51:55Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > If that were so, why would he be embarking on this obviously self-destructive path? Because it will benefit him – in terms of his financial supporters in the insurance industry. Whether he expects to retire from the Senate into a number of well-endowed Board of Directors seats, or expects that Connecticut voters will not take issue with his positions come his run fo reelection, I don’t know. But I see it as a calculated vote to benefit those to whom he is morally indebted for their past support. (My hunch is that he plans to retire from the Senate – heck, even the Connecticut For Lieberman Party no longer is for him – but his ego may be such as to expect he will survive this and get reelected. ---
**Author:** ![waterj2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@waterj2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waterj2)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-reform-lieberman/521232/85 "2009-12-15T21:57:04Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > Because it will benefit him – in terms of his financial supporters in the insurance industry. Whether he expects to retire from the Senate into a number of well-endowed Board of Directors seats, or expects that Connecticut voters will not take issue with his positions come his run fo reelection, I don’t know. But I see it as a calculated vote to benefit those to whom he is morally indebted for their past support. Especially since, as I’ve seen pointed out in several places, he’s not getting any money from the Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee, meaning that while he’s not getting much more from the insurance industry than Chris Dodd (the other Connecticut Senator) objectively, he’s getting far more relative to what he’s getting from the Democrats. ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-reform-lieberman/521232/86 "2009-12-15T21:59:37Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Perhaps I’m missing some of the definitional subtleties of cob nobbler hobgoblins. Eh, I’m not too concerned about the subtleties. I’m just swingin’ on the flippity-flop. ---
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-reform-lieberman/521232/87 "2009-12-15T22:05:48Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > If that were so, why would he be embarking on this obviously self-destructive path? What reason does he have to think it’s self-destructive? He undermined the Democrats on the war and actively and enthusiastically endorsed the Republican candidate in the last Presidential election. He’s taken every chance he’s had to screw the Democrats over in the last few years, and he still has his seniority and his leadership positions. He could nail Harry Reid’s wife on the Senate floor and Reid still wouldn’t have the balls to do anything about it. Voters, on the other hand, aren’t going to be so kind. He lost his last primary and had to fight to win the general as an independent, and that’s when he could still plausibly claim to have the Democrats’ interests at heart “on everything but the war”. He’ll have no such cred next time, so he might as well secure as much of the Republican vote as he can. (He can’t switch parties, though, because I don’t think he can win a two-way race as a Republican or a Democrat. His best shot is another three-way race. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-reform-lieberman/521232/88 "2009-12-15T22:12:46Z")
> [@Mollie\_Magill](#): > > i think Lieberman’s interests consist primarily of “Look at meeeeeee!” with a smattering of “Look at them being so mean to meeeeee!” thrown in there. So, Sarah Palin without her one positive quality? -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-reform-lieberman/521232/89 "2009-12-15T22:15:11Z")
Bricker continues to be a prick, as usual. He’s doing it for the money. Holy shit, no, really? Yes, Virginia, stop pretending you’re as dumb as your idols. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-reform-lieberman/521232/90 "2009-12-15T22:22:46Z")
> [@tumbleddown](#): > > It’s not the creation of the spark that’s at issue with light switches (and elevator buttons and opening the refrigerator door and having the light come on) it’s the completion of the circuit, which is construed as an act of building. From [Electricity and the Sabbath, Chap. 5](http://www.shemayisrael.co.il/shure/elec/elec_eng_E1.htm): > [@](#): > > Therefore, turning on any of these types of tubes or bulbs violates the Biblical works of kindling a fire and cooking. Furthermore, opening and closing the switch produces sparks, this transgresses the Rabbinical prohibition of the work of kindling a fire. From “The book of Jewish Practice,” by Louis Jacobs, pg. 76: > [@](#): > > When electricity was first harnassed for use, some Orthodox rabbis advanced the theory that to switch on a light does not break the commandment against kindling fire . . . But the opposite platform has won out among Orthodox Jews, and today most Orthodox Jews have a time to regulate the electric lights automatically. > [@tumbleddown](#): > > Lieberman, when voting on shabbos, engages in the act of building enmity between himself and all working people. He’s a self-serving traitor. “Traitor?” To who? The “working people?” Give me a break. He’s defending the working people, many of whom seem to be against this initiative. Indeed, it’s the NONworking people that will benefit from these schemes and get their health care paid for by the working people. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-reform-lieberman/521232/91 "2009-12-15T22:26:55Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > Bricker continues to be a prick, as usual. > > He’s doing it for the money. Holy shit, no, really? Yes, Virginia, stop pretending you’re as dumb as your idols. Uh huh. Well, at least we have good examples like Senator Landrieu to show us how to stand up for principles and not be swayed by money. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-reform-lieberman/521232/92 "2009-12-15T22:34:04Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Uh huh. > > Well, at least we have good examples like Senator Landrieu to show us how to stand up for principles and not be swayed by money. Deflect! Deflect! YOU DO IT TOOOOOOOOOO!!!111 [/bricker] ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-reform-lieberman/521232/93 "2009-12-15T22:38:24Z")
> [@ratatoskK](#): > > I was going to start a “Lieberman is a schmuck” thread but you beat me to it! Not only is he a schmuck, but WHY do people listen to him and take him seriously? He’s a egotistic nut. Because he is such a good singer? ---
**Author:** ![Punoqllads](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d2c977/32.png) [@Punoqllads](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Punoqllads)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-reform-lieberman/521232/94 "2009-12-15T22:40:46Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Indeed, it’s the NONworking people that will benefit from these schemes and get their health care paid for by the working people. Working people are already paying for the health care of nonworking people, it’s just that the payment is less visible. Hospitals have to raise their fees for everyone because they know that a certain percentage of people they treat are not in a position to pay them. This increase in fees, ironically, increases the number of people who aren’t able to afford their treatment. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-reform-lieberman/521232/95 "2009-12-15T23:06:17Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > Lieberman supported extending Medicare in 2000. Like others have said, Lieberman supported the medicare extension buy-in 3 months ago. His only goal at this point is to get revenge on progressives. Progressives have been trying to ruin his career since 2006. They/we supported Lamont over him and we wanted Reid to take away his chairmanship after he supported McCain in 2008. He is motivated by revenge against progressives now. In between him and the obstructionist GOP, its no wonder our country is falling apart. This is our national leadership. ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-reform-lieberman/521232/96 "2009-12-15T23:15:48Z")
From [The New Republic](http://www.tnr.com/blog/the-plank/lieberman-vs-nelson): > [@](#): > > The false premise here is that liberals are irked with Lieberman solely because of the content of his position. The truth is that Lieberman has been so irritating because he’s operating in bad faith. As Marc Ambinder reports, “Lieberman blessed the Gang of Ten deal privately before those talks were completed, then reversed himself as soon as it became evident that the left saw a silver lining in the consolation prize of a Medicare buy-in proposal.” Lieberman’s new position is that he is willing to filibuster health care reform, a goal which he promised to help fulfill in 2006 when he won his seat, if it includes a provision that Lieberman himself was advocating three months ago. Lieberman is displaying a total lack of moral and intellectual seriousness on an issue upon which many lives rest. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-reform-lieberman/521232/97 "2009-12-15T23:15:57Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Give me a break. He’s defending the working people, many of whom seem to be against this initiative. Indeed, it’s the NONworking people that will benefit from these schemes and get their health care paid for by the working people. Not to ruin a line that sounds like a reject from whatever script Sean Hannity reads from, but there’s quite a few “working people” that don’t have, can’t get, and can’t afford health care. I’m not saying that this bill will fix that. I’d honestly prefer that they blow this up as it sounds as if the government is in full on “anything, no matter how shitty, is better than nothing” mode. I just think that this whole nonworker/worker dichotomy is a steaming pile. There’s plenty of workers who still manage to be poor. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-reform-lieberman/521232/98 "2009-12-15T23:40:50Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Like others have said, Lieberman supported the medicare extension buy-in 3 months ago. I’m sure this is true, but is there a specific cite? ---
**Author:** ![waterj2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@waterj2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waterj2)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-reform-lieberman/521232/99 "2009-12-15T23:43:09Z")
> [@Harborwolf](#): > > Not to ruin a line that sounds like a reject from whatever script Sean Hannity reads from, but there’s quite a few “working people” that don’t have, can’t get, and can’t afford health care. I’m not saying that this bill will fix that. I’d honestly prefer that they blow this up as it sounds as if the government is in full on “anything, no matter how shitty, is better than nothing” mode. I just think that this whole nonworker/worker dichotomy is a steaming pile. There’s plenty of workers who still manage to be poor. [Here](http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2009/12/why-progressives-are-batshit-crazy-to.html) Nate Silver of [FiveThirtyEight.com](http://FiveThirtyEight.com) shows the difference between the status quo and the Senate bill (the version with the public option still in, as that’s what the CBO has scored, but it shouldn’t make much difference for this example) for a family of four making $54,000 a year, which is hardly non-working. The help that the bill provides is substantial, and in Nate’s (and my own) opinion, worth passing, even if far from ideal. In an earlier post, he describes the opposition to the public option (aside from Lieberman) as having negotiated in good faith, the progressives as having worked their asses of for a very tough goal, and fallen just short, having moved from the support of 45 or so Senators in the middle of the summer to the support of 58 or 59 Senators now. Now, I figure the best option is to figure out what Olympia Snowe or even Susan Collins will agree to, now that the public option is dead. The two of them at least seem to be willing to vote on a bill based on the merits of the bill itself and now on how they can hurt progressive Democrats in the process. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-reform-lieberman/521232/100 "2009-12-15T23:49:00Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > “Traitor?” To who? The “working people?” > > Give me a break. He’s defending the working people, many of whom seem to be against this initiative. Indeed, it’s the NONworking people that will benefit from these schemes and get their health care paid for by the working people. Just for the record, the people living around here are either legitimately disabled or working (or of course still children/youth in school). TTBOMK, there are no working people with access to insurance, and certainly nobody with insurance – the only people with any coverage are the kids of poorer families, on Medicaid, and two of the disabled people, on Medicare. Nor is it a case of people wasting money instead of buying insurance – they’re spending money on such frivolities as utility bills and food. I’m not firmly convinced that ‘having the government provide it’ is the panacea to every ill – but when I can see a healthy cross-section of a population, none of whom have reasonable access to either group or individual health insurance, I start thinking that arguments like that one are nothing but partisan sniping, not rationally-based objections. I’m sure examples from, say, higher-income suburbs would be quite different than what I’m looking at in a rural county on the outskirts of a metropolitan area. But the issue is noth whether $70K young professionals can get affordable insurance so much as it is whether actual working poor can get health care under any circumstances, other than incurring bills that will go unpaid and end up as judgments against them if they do work. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-reform-lieberman/521232.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-reform-lieberman/521232.md?page=6)