# Health Care Reform & Lieberman **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 14, 2009, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-reform-lieberman/521232 "2009-12-14T17:06:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![waterj2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@waterj2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waterj2)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-reform-lieberman/521232/101 "2009-12-15T23:51:40Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I’m sure this is true, but is there a specific cite? [Here’s the video](http://tpmlivewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/12/lieberman-supports-medicare-buy-in-in-september.php). ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-reform-lieberman/521232/102 "2009-12-16T01:15:25Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Give me a break. He’s defending the working people, many of whom seem to be against this initiative. Indeed, it’s the NONworking people that will benefit from these schemes and get their health care paid for by the working people. You went there. You fucking went there. After all the threads on this messageboard outlining why this is a completely bogus argument, and you still fucking went there. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-reform-lieberman/521232/103 "2009-12-16T01:59:19Z")
> [@waterj2](#): > > [Here’s the video](http://tpmlivewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/12/lieberman-supports-medicare-buy-in-in-september.php). In that video, he says he favored the Medicare option in 2004 and 2006. Not three months ago. The video may have come form three months ago, but he’s answering a question about what his position was during his 2004 presidential bid and 2006 senate campaign. He’s not (in this segement, anyway) expressing current supprt for the Medicare option; he consistently uses the past tense. Transcribed from the video: > [@](#): > > INTERVIEWER: The first question came from somebody named Jeff Coolis in Avon. “When you first ran for President in 2004 and Senate in 2006, you supported a public option choice for healthcare by extending Medichoice. Why do you now, in 2009, oppose a public option after so long supporting it?” > > LIEBERMAN: Yeah. Uh, I didn’t really support a public option in the way that, uh, it’s being recommended now. In other words, what’s being recommended now is a, uh, a seperate uh new, government run health insurance plan. Ah, what I supported then was, and, ah, thanks for mentioning this because it points out that for um, uh some period of years I’ve been concerned about health care reform and devoted to doing something about health care reform and trying to figure out to best to cover uh, with insurance people that are uncovered so what I did, and here’s the difference, my proposals um were to uh basically expand the existing successful public health insurance programs, Medicare and Medicaid. In the case of Medicaid, uh, to allow people who were above the eligibility level to buy uh into the Medicaid system on the theory that it would be up to a certain income lev-- on the theory that they would be able into it at less than the market rate of health insurance. When it came to Medicare, I was very focused on a group uh, post-fifty, maybe post-more-like post-fifty-five, people who have retired early or uh unfortunately have been laid off early, who lose their health insurance and they’re too young to qualify for Medicare and what I was proposing was that they have an option to buy into um Medicare early and again, on the premise that that would be less expensive than the enormous cost. If you’re fifty-five or sixty, and you’re without health insurance and you go in to try to buy it, because you’re older, although to me still young and vital, ahhh, heh heh, you’re rated as being (inaudible) uh, that um, you’re rated as a risk and you pay a lot of money. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-reform-lieberman/521232/104 "2009-12-16T02:00:30Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > You went there. You fucking went there. After all the threads on this messageboard outlining why this is a completely bogus argument, and you still fucking went there. It’s not a bogus argument. You’re focusing on how much will cost. I’m focusing on the simple proposition that it’s wrong to make me pay for your medical care, no matter what that does to our respective costs. ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-reform-lieberman/521232/105 "2009-12-16T02:04:54Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > It’s not a bogus argument. You’re focusing on how much will cost. I’m focusing on the simple proposition that it’s wrong to make me pay for your medical care, no matter what that does to our respective costs. C’mon, man, don’t be a lamestain. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-reform-lieberman/521232/106 "2009-12-16T02:12:59Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > It’s not a bogus argument. You’re focusing on how much will cost. I’m focusing on the simple proposition that it’s wrong to make me pay for your medical care, no matter what that does to our respective costs. I wonder: why is this POV so prevalent here, and not in other countries? Are they (in the libertarian POV) just brainwashed by the all-consuming power of the government teat? Are they just stupid? How are they being harmed by not accepting/embracing this POV more? (Yes, yes, I know I had a GD thread asking that last question, but it didn’t seem to go extremely far.) ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-reform-lieberman/521232/107 "2009-12-16T02:15:00Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > It’s not a bogus argument. You’re focusing on how much will cost. I’m focusing on the simple proposition that it’s wrong to make me pay for your medical care, no matter what that does to our respective costs. Why should I pay for your defense? Why should I and my state allow your Virginian ass to drive on the highways we Tarheels paid for? For all of that, why should I support with my tax moneys an institution that permits you to make money off the legal difficulties of other people, as you have assuredly done and even posted about doing it on a regular basis. Presuming your mother entitled to Social Security benefits, why should we pay in FICA taxes that will be used for her support? The obvious answer is, because we as a society deem it appropriate to provide for each other. And you have chosen to draw a bright line – a different one than the Four Horsemen, or Robert Taft, or Barry Goldwater, or Ronald Reagan would have drawn – as to what is morally acceptable (“right”) and what is not (“wrong”). Oh, and by the way, since we’re both Christians, how do you justify your “this is wrong” stance against the explicit commandments of Jesus Christ? You can transport that over to GD if you so choose, but I’m genuinely interested in your answer, since you’re a Catholic Christian and a thinking non-doctrinaire conservative who probably has a good reason besides “it’s what my Party sez” for your thinking. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-reform-lieberman/521232/108 "2009-12-16T02:20:20Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > It’s not a bogus argument. You’re focusing on how much will cost. I’m focusing on the simple proposition that it’s wrong to make me pay for your medical care, no matter what that does to our respective costs. But this doesn’t really follow the working/nonworking statement of your earlier post. If you want to take this argument, so be it. If you want to rope this statement into your earlier one, you need to put a definition forward that defines worker (you) vs. nonworker (not you?). ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-reform-lieberman/521232/109 "2009-12-16T02:30:22Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > It’s not a bogus argument. You’re focusing on how much will cost. I’m focusing on the simple proposition that it’s wrong to make me pay for your medical care, no matter what that does to our respective costs. You pay for their medical care now though higher premiums. You are adverse to paying less? Never mind that the subsidies are a small part of the overall bill. Your argument isn’t very compelling. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-reform-lieberman/521232/110 "2009-12-16T02:39:06Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > You pay for their medical care now though higher premiums. You are adverse to paying less? > > Never mind that the subsidies are a small part of the overall bill. > > Your argument isn’t very compelling. I am adverse to paying for others. I’ve lost track of where it was, but in one of these threads, I offered the analogy of “Millions for defense, but not one cent for tribute.” ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-reform-lieberman/521232/111 "2009-12-16T02:42:01Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > I wonder: why is this POV so prevalent here, and not in other countries? Are they (in the libertarian POV) just brainwashed by the all-consuming power of the government teat? Are they just stupid? How are they being harmed by not accepting/embracing this POV more? I don’t know. But in my limited travels in Europe and the Caribbean, I can tell you that Americans are different. This is not an argument made with precision, and there are endless qualifiers to attach to it, but at its heart: Americans are different. Those differences have made this country a success where other countries have not seen success. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-reform-lieberman/521232/112 "2009-12-16T02:47:18Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > Why should I pay for your defense? Why should I and my state allow your Virginian ass to drive on the highways we Tarheels paid for? For all of that, why should I support with my tax moneys an institution that permits you to make money off the legal difficulties of other people, as you have assuredly done and even posted about doing it on a regular basis. Presuming your mother entitled to Social Security benefits, why should we pay in FICA taxes that will be used for her support? > > The obvious answer is, because we as a society deem it appropriate to provide for each other. And you have chosen to draw a bright line – a different one than the Four Horsemen, or Robert Taft, or Barry Goldwater, or Ronald Reagan would have drawn – as to what is morally acceptable (“right”) and what is not (“wrong”). You’re right: we as a society have made the determination that certain things are appropriate for public regulation and subsidy. We’re now engaged in a battle, where one side wishes to add yet another item to the list, and others wish to resist that addition. I favor public roads. I don’t favor public healthcare. You can hardly say we should have public healthcare because we as a society deem it appropriate… since we haven’t deemed it so just yet. > [@](#): > > Oh, and by the way, since we’re both Christians, how do you justify your “this is wrong” stance against the explicit commandments of Jesus Christ? You can transport that over to GD if you so choose, but I’m genuinely interested in your answer, since you’re a Catholic Christian and a thinking non-doctrinaire conservative who probably has a good reason besides “it’s what my Party sez” for your thinking. Short answer: I don’t believe there’s much value in applying Christ’s teachings piecemeal. If you are truly arguing we should form public policy based on Christ’s teachings, that’s fine… but I don’t accept the concept that we may choose this item and apply his teachings, but disregard others. This is a secualr society, and our public policy should be drawn from secular principles. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-reform-lieberman/521232/113 "2009-12-16T02:48:53Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I am adverse to paying for others. So why do you want to maintain the status quo? You are paying for others now. Your premiums are higher and your taxes are higher, because many default on medical debts and use the ER as their primary care provider. You are paying for them now. Why don’t you support some plan, any plan, that will reduce that? Light a fucking candle, **Bricker**. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-reform-lieberman/521232/114 "2009-12-16T02:59:13Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But in my limited travels in Europe and the Caribbean, I can tell you that Americans are different. This is not an argument made with precision, and there are endless qualifiers to attach to it, but at its heart: Americans are different. Those differences have made this country a success where other countries have not seen success. What are those differences? How have they made us more successful? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-reform-lieberman/521232/115 "2009-12-16T03:36:05Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I don’t know. > > But in my limited travels in Europe and the Caribbean, I can tell you that Americans are different. This is not an argument made with precision, and there are endless qualifiers to attach to it, but at its heart: Americans are different. Those differences have made this country a success where other countries have not seen success. Well, I can certainly appreciate why you’d want to prevent America from becoming the desperate, third world hell-hole that is western Europe. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-reform-lieberman/521232/116 "2009-12-16T04:00:24Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I don’t know. > > But in my limited travels in Europe and the Caribbean, I can tell you that Americans are different. This is not an argument made with precision, and there are endless qualifiers to attach to it, but at its heart: Americans are different. Those differences have made this country a success where other countries have not seen success. Please define “success.” ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-reform-lieberman/521232/117 "2009-12-16T04:40:23Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > So why do you want to maintain the status quo? You are paying for others now. Your premiums are higher and your taxes are higher, because many default on medical debts and use the ER as their primary care provider. You are paying for them now. Why don’t you support some plan, any plan, that will reduce that? > > Light a fucking candle, **Bricker**. It’s not about the money so much as it’s about the principle. Under the current system, people owe their own expenses, Some default, and the system must compensate for that by raising prices, yes. But the basic recognition that people are responsible for their own costs remains. I believe it’s important for this model to remain. People should be responsible for their own health care. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-reform-lieberman/521232/118 "2009-12-16T04:41:24Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > Please define “success.” This is not an argument made with precision, and there are endless qualifiers to attach to it… ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-reform-lieberman/521232/119 "2009-12-16T04:41:58Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > It’s not a bogus argument. You’re focusing on how much will cost. I’m focusing on the **simple** proposition that it’s wrong to make me pay for your medical care, no matter what that does to our respective costs. _emphasis mine – **kd99** _ You appear to have misspelled _ **simplistic** _. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-reform-lieberman/521232/120 "2009-12-16T04:50:07Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I believe it’s important for this model to remain. No matter how unrealistic your fervent hope is, nor how much it damages your own self interest. Doing the same thing again and again, but expecting a different outcome; there is word for that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-reform-lieberman/521232.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-reform-lieberman/521232.md?page=7)