# Health Care Reform & Lieberman **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 14, 2009, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-reform-lieberman/521232 "2009-12-14T17:06:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-reform-lieberman/521232/141 "2009-12-16T16:04:24Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Because printing documents in French and English, establishing a state religion and returning to better defined gender roles are not objectively better than our current policies in these areas. > > You know that’s a specious argument at best. Because these countries cannot teach us everything, they can teach us nothing? Did we do poorly in emulating Great Britain when we abolished slavery? Did Britain do poorly in emulating us when it granted women the right to vote? The point is that these decisions should stand or fall on their own merits. It’s not relevant that Japan has UHC, unless it’s also relevant that Japan still treats women like second-class citizens. What you’re saying is correct: we should look at whether the policy is objectively better FOR US. And so what other countries are doing is not dispositive. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-reform-lieberman/521232/142 "2009-12-16T16:06:20Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Not that it can’t be defined… just that I wasn’t particularly interested in spending the effort in defining it, especially since you will undoubtedly disagree. But I could certainly start with the claim that success can be defined by maximizing gross domestic product, personal freedom, and morality. Nice. I translate that to mean More Money, Me First and I’m Better Than You. Go ahead and live by that code. I’ll pass. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-reform-lieberman/521232/143 "2009-12-16T16:06:25Z")
Oh, well I guess Lieberman isn’t a duplicitous shitstain afterall, thanks to his cunning hedge that Bricker has kindly pointed out to us. I guess we can close up this thread and we can all send him flowers. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-reform-lieberman/521232/144 "2009-12-16T16:11:22Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > It’s not relevant that Japan has UHC, unless it’s also relevant that Japan still treats women like second-class citizens. What you’re saying is correct: we should look at whether the policy is objectively better FOR US. > > And so what other countries are doing is not dispositive. If you’re going to find some cockamamie way to dismiss anybody else’s experience as even relevant as evidence, which you do, then you can answer the problem any way you like. But you can hardly call such a deliberately-blinkered approach “objective”. Yet you do nonetheless. Amazing. Sad, but amazing. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-reform-lieberman/521232/145 "2009-12-16T16:13:36Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Nice. I translate that to mean More Money, Me First and I’m Better Than You. > > Go ahead and live by that code. I’ll pass. Your privilege. But you surely must concede that yours is a subjective decision, not an objective one. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-reform-lieberman/521232/146 "2009-12-16T16:15:02Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > So it would be fair to say that Lieberman supported the Medicare buy-in three years ago, not three months ago. No, it is not fair to say that. If he reiterated his 2006 position three months ago, then it is fair to say he still holds that position, and the cite is entirely valid. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-reform-lieberman/521232/147 "2009-12-16T16:18:33Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > Oh, well I guess Lieberman isn’t a duplicitous shitstain afterall, thanks to his cunning hedge that Bricker has kindly pointed out to us. I guess we can close up this thread and we can all send him flowers. You mean his cunning hedge of actually answering the exact question he was asked? Yes, the man is as devious as he is crafty. Or did you mean all the people who reported it as “3 months” without ever listening to the video, wherein it was crystal clear he was talking about his 2004 and 2006 campaigns? Because the “Duplicitious Shitstain” T-shirts may still get deserving wearers after all. Oh, I forgot. They agree with you, so their inaccuracies are cutely forgiveable. Right? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-reform-lieberman/521232/148 "2009-12-16T16:20:35Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > No, it is not fair to say that. If he reiterated his 2006 position three months ago, then it is fair to say he still holds that position, and the cite is entirely valid. _sigh_ He is asked a question about his position three years ago. He answers it completely using the past tense: > [@](#): > > INTERVIEWER: The first question came from somebody named Jeff Coolis in Avon. “When you first ran for President in 2004 and Senate in 2006, you supported a public option choice for healthcare by extending Medichoice. Why do you now, in 2009, oppose a public option after so long supporting it?” > > LIEBERMAN: Yeah. Uh, I didn’t really support a public option in the way that, uh, it’s being recommended now. In other words, what’s being recommended now is a, uh, a seperate uh new, government run health insurance plan. Ah, what I supported then was, and, ah, thanks for mentioning this because it points out that for um, uh some period of years I’ve been concerned about health care reform and devoted to doing something about health care reform and trying to figure out to best to cover uh, with insurance people that are uncovered so what I did, and here’s the difference, my proposals um were to uh basically expand the existing successful public health insurance programs, Medicare and Medicaid. In the case of Medicaid, uh, to allow people who were above the eligibility level to buy uh into the Medicaid system on the theory that it would be up to a certain income lev-- on the theory that they would be able into it at less than the market rate of health insurance. When it came to Medicare, I was very focused on a group uh, post-fifty, maybe post-more-like post-fifty-five, people who have retired early or uh unfortunately have been laid off early, who lose their health insurance and they’re too young to qualify for Medicare and what I was proposing was that they have an option to buy into um Medicare early and again, on the premise that that would be less expensive than the enormous cost. If you’re fifty-five or sixty, and you’re without health insurance and you go in to try to buy it, because you’re older, although to me still young and vital, ahhh, heh heh, you’re rated as being (inaudible) uh, that um, you’re rated as a risk and you pay a lot of money. That’s what he says in the video, word for word. Where in it does he say “I am” instead of “I was?” ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-reform-lieberman/521232/149 "2009-12-16T16:23:49Z")
Where does it say he no longer holds that view? He still appears to be promoting it. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-reform-lieberman/521232/150 "2009-12-16T16:23:53Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Thanks for the confirmation as well as the ray of hope. I am sometimes quite taken aback when I see the exceptionalist point of view, and it confirms that I’m really glad to be living where I do. It seems that some would rather not pay taxes, but would give coins to beggers after making them dance. It must make them feel superior. Possibly it does. And – were I a beggar – possibly I’d feel superior if I could simply grab someone else’s money instead of dancing for it. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-reform-lieberman/521232/151 "2009-12-16T16:30:16Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Where does it say he no longer holds that view? He still appears to be promoting it. If that were true, then you’d think he would have used the present tense once or twice. He’s asked about his position in the past, and he clarifies what his position was in the past. How is that promoting it? Where in the video does he say that’s his present position? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-reform-lieberman/521232/152 "2009-12-16T16:32:38Z")
So, this principle of people being responsible for their own health care? This is worth people dying over? Dispositive? No, dis negative. Dis really bad. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-reform-lieberman/521232/153 "2009-12-16T16:39:37Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > So, this principle of people being responsible for their own health care? This is worth people dying over? Dispositive? No, dis negative. Dis really bad. Well, I certainly had no idea that the universal health care measure would actually eliminate death. I withdraw my opposition immediately. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-reform-lieberman/521232/154 "2009-12-16T16:40:37Z")
None of this crap matters anyway. You wanna blame someone for this watered down legislation, blame Barack Obama. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-reform-lieberman/521232/155 "2009-12-16T16:42:15Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > None of this crap matters anyway. You wanna blame someone for this watered down legislation, blame Barack Obama. Oh, I do. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-reform-lieberman/521232/156 "2009-12-16T16:46:40Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Well, I certainly had no idea that the universal health care measure would actually eliminate death. I withdraw my opposition immediately. I will do you the honor of assuming that you’re already embarassed about saying such a thing. Let pretend you didn’t, and you take another shot at it. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-reform-lieberman/521232/157 "2009-12-16T16:47:55Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Well, I certainly had no idea that the universal health care measure would actually eliminate death. I withdraw my opposition immediately. It would lower the amount of death you moron. By your standards no one would ever do anything because nothing is 100% successful. You’re really pathetic you know. I’m amazed that you seem to think you’re clever by positing reaching bullshit as perfectly reasonable. Your Supermanian resistance to fact-bullets is impressive in its scope but it isn’t a power, it’s a weakness. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-reform-lieberman/521232/158 "2009-12-16T16:52:13Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I will do you the honor of assuming that you’re already embarassed about saying such a thing. Let pretend you didn’t, and you take another shot at it. So why is it that you can post sarcastic, hyperbolic crap but I have to stick to reasoned and factual arguments? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-reform-lieberman/521232/159 "2009-12-16T16:55:42Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I am adverse to paying for others. > > I’ve lost track of where it was, but in one of these threads, I offered the analogy of “Millions for defense, but not one cent for tribute.” You pay one way or another. If the poor don’t get health care they will be dropped into the system when they are very sick and care is expensive. Do you suggest pulling the plug to save your money. Just refuse everybody who comes in an emergency room that may cost more than their insurance will cover? Billions for defense , not millions. And oddly we pacifists have to pay foe every damn war that America starts. I resent paying for a bloated military budget. But they are powerful politically connected and will eat our tax money forever. That money is wasted. Health care would be a far better use of our money. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-reform-lieberman/521232/160 "2009-12-16T16:58:48Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > It would lower the amount of death you moron. By your standards no one would ever do anything because nothing is 100% successful. > > You’re really pathetic you know. I’m amazed that you seem to think you’re clever by positing reaching bullshit as perfectly reasonable. > > Your Supermanian resistance to fact-bullets is impressive in its scope but it isn’t a power, it’s a weakness. Look, I know what he meant – and what you mean, even though I’m sorely tempted to point out that the death rate remains the same: one person, one death. What you mean to suggest is that lives will be extended by adoption of this plan. But that’s an argument with more subtle stupidity associated with it. My plan to ban all automobiles will also extend lives by virtue of almost completely eliminating highway deaths. But no one seems to want to adopt it. Why? Because there are costs associated with the sacrifice. You cannot, in other words, simply bandy about a claim that lives will be extended without addressing the costs of doing so. So. yes, I’m going to argue that the benefits of living in a society in which individuals are responsible for their own healthcare outweighs the extensions in lifespans we may realize by going to a system where it’s viewed as a societal burden instead of an individual one. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-reform-lieberman/521232.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-care-reform-lieberman/521232.md?page=9)