# Health law risks turning away sick **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 4, 2010, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-law-risks-turning-away-sick/545492 "2010-07-04T05:51:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2010, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-law-risks-turning-away-sick/545492/41 "2010-07-04T21:14:14Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Cobra is a lifeline for a lot of people. The problem is it doesn’t cover your employer’s side of the health plan. > > Your mistake here is you seem to be comparing a conventional health insurance plan for a high deductible catastrophic plan. The HDCP’s are terrible because they cost more. If you don’t end up needing health care they’re cheaper, but if you do, they can ruin you. As I pointed out, my deductible is less than the difference I was spending on COBRA. It doesn’t matter if I pay the deductible every year for eternity, it’s still cheaper. > [@Lobohan](#): > > Then why are you using an insurance broker? I was confused by your statements because they are unfocused. Mah bad. Why am I using an insurance broker??? I’m using a financial adviser who is skilled in dealing with insurance companies. He spent hours going over the different policies with me after doing all the legwork. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2010, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-law-risks-turning-away-sick/545492/42 "2010-07-04T21:21:44Z")
You are expressing your compaint in an unfortunate manner, you leave the impression that your primary complaint is not that the health reform is bad for the country, but that it is bad for you. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2010, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-law-risks-turning-away-sick/545492/43 "2010-07-04T21:25:03Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I’m paying less than the difference between cobra and a private policy plus deductible. That means I can pay my deductible and have money left over. My lifetime limits are higher than the cobra policy I left. But again, the discussion was about the rate increases. My agent went through every policy available and they all rose sharply. And maybe the problem is you? I don’t know your health conditions. You have to consider that the HDCP is made to save the insurance company money. It isn’t a better deal. They pay out less money to cover you. > [@](#): > > The specifics are my policy is rising in anticipation of convering high risk groups. As Sateryn76 pointed out, it’s the people who took responsibility for their insurance who are taking the hit. High risk groups need to be included in the risk pool. This is a fact. They are paid for now, but inefficiently by ERs. You need to learn to deal with facts when deciding your policy views. > [@](#): > > You C A N N O T be serious that it’s a productive use of tax funds to put up signs to denote that tax funds are being spent. Seriously, with that logic we should put up little signs next to the big signs describing the big sign. Repeat as needed until bankrupt or the planet is completely deforested. You are utterly ignorant of economics. It’s worse than I thought. This has been explained to you before. You either haven’t understood it or willfully ignored it, but please make an attempt to understand basic economics before posting about it. I don’t even know that much about it, but I at least understand the broad strokes. The signs are perfectly reasonable because they 1. Are reasonably priced for an external all weather sign. 2. The money goes into the economy and stimulates spending. 3. They promote consumer confidence, except among the utterly uninformed. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2010, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-law-risks-turning-away-sick/545492/44 "2010-07-04T21:28:10Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > You are expressing your compaint in an unfortunate manner, you leave the impression that your primary complaint is not that the health reform is bad for the country, but that it is bad for you. I’ve already stated my position that it’s bad for people who took the responsibility for their insurance needs. The process of helping people in high risk (an acceptable venture) is hurting this group of people. It certainly pertains to those in company backed policies as well. The vast majority of people are going to be hurt by this. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2010, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-law-risks-turning-away-sick/545492/45 "2010-07-04T21:31:07Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > This has been explained to you before. You either haven’t understood it or willfully ignored it, but please make an attempt to understand basic economics before posting about it. I don’t even know that much about it, but I at least understand the broad strokes. The signs are perfectly reasonable because they 1. Are reasonably priced for an external all weather sign. 2. The money goes into the economy and stimulates spending. 3. They promote consumer confidence, except among the utterly uninformed. It is fucking retarded to spend money on a sign describing the expenditure of money on project. If that is somehow logical then spending money on a sign explaining the other sign would make sense. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2010, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-law-risks-turning-away-sick/545492/46 "2010-07-04T21:32:57Z")
If this county had universal health CARE - like every other sane first-world country - then no one would need health care INSURANCE ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2010, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-law-risks-turning-away-sick/545492/47 "2010-07-04T21:32:57Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > As I pointed out, my deductible is less than the difference I was spending on COBRA. It doesn’t matter if I pay the deductible every year for eternity, it’s still cheaper. Your deductible, plus your monthly premiums, plus any balance that your insurance company doesn’t cover is probably less. There is always a chance that your COBRA coverage was terrible, in which case you should inform your old employer that he’s paying for [haga](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0082198/quotes?qt0446948). > [@](#): > > Why am I using an insurance broker??? I’m using a financial adviser who is skilled in dealing with insurance companies. He spent hours going over the different policies with me after doing all the legwork. So you didn’t change policies, but paid someone to look over policies. But your current policy isn’t your COBRA policy? You need to get clear on what you did before arguing about it. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2010, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-law-risks-turning-away-sick/545492/48 "2010-07-04T21:35:06Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > It is fucking retarded to spend money on a sign describing the expenditure of money on project. If that is somehow logical then spending money on a sign explaining the other sign would make sense. Paying people to dig holes and fill them up again would stimulate spending. This only works when you are in a deep recession and spending is down and there is unused capacity. Obviously this doesn’t work when the economy is strong. But right now we have people who aren’t being used. It’s amazing that you don’t know this. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2010, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-law-risks-turning-away-sick/545492/49 "2010-07-04T21:36:17Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > As I pointed out, my deductible is less than the difference I was spending on COBRA. It doesn’t matter if I pay the deductible every year for eternity, it’s still cheaper. Of course, if you do suffer a major illness or accident and hit your deductible there’s a good chance the insurance company will do everything in their power to either dump you when renewal time comes up, leaving you without insurance entirely and damn little access to healthcare at all, or jack your rates up way more than the 20% you’re whining about today. The good deal (?) lasts only so long as you _never need to use your insurance_. I don’t care how “responsible” you are, you aren’t immune to illness or accident. I just hope, for your sake, you never have to go through anything like that. ---
**Author:** ![sleeping](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/839c29/32.png) [@sleeping](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleeping)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2010, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-law-risks-turning-away-sick/545492/50 "2010-07-04T21:41:50Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > > [@Sam Stone](#): > > > > Isn’t the #1 goal of public health care to ensure that those with pre-existing conditions can find health care? > > I think you are confusing public health care with health insurance - they are NOT the same thing! The bill was _health insurance reform_, not \*healthcare \*reform. ---
**Author:** ![sleeping](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/839c29/32.png) [@sleeping](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleeping)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2010, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-law-risks-turning-away-sick/545492/51 "2010-07-04T21:43:04Z")
Er, [never mind](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12649017&postcount=46). You got it. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2010, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-law-risks-turning-away-sick/545492/52 "2010-07-04T21:45:13Z")
> [@suranyi](#): > > We have an even better HDCP, offerered through work. The deductible is the minumum allowed by law to be considered an HDCP – about $2500, IIRC. After that the insurcance company pays 90% of everything until we’ve paid $4000 out of pocket. After that they pay 100%. There are never any copays at any point – not when paying the deductible, or at the 90% level. > > The premium is about $300 per month. > > I put the maximum allowed by law every year in to the HSA, so that usually covers any actual medical expenses I have. > > That is not an argument for or against Health Care Reform (although I am generally in favor of it, for other reasons). Just wanted to point out there are pretty good HDCPs out there. Fight my ignorance here: You pay 300 a month, so 3600 a year. You pay up to $4000 deductibles. (Assuming you need the coverage). That’s $7600 per year. If you’re getting this from your employer the cost is actually significantly more than that. Is that actually any cheaper than you’d be likely to get comparable coverage for? Obviously we’re discussing this in a vacuum, we don’t know your health status, the number of people covered, your state, your age and so on. I’m not asking you to tell me that stuff, but the fact is that the HDCP aren’t designed to save you money. They’re designed to make the Insurance Company more money. I’m sure that actuarially you end up around the same as a conventional policy. Possibly worse, because that’s what they’d be motivated to get away with. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2010, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-law-risks-turning-away-sick/545492/53 "2010-07-05T00:58:33Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Of course, if you do suffer a major illness or accident and hit your deductible there’s a good chance the insurance company will do everything in their power to either dump you when renewal time comes up, leaving you without insurance entirely and damn little access to healthcare at all, or jack your rates up way more than the 20% you’re whining about today. The good deal (?) lasts only so long as you _never need to use your insurance_. I don’t care how “responsible” you are, you aren’t immune to illness or accident. I just hope, for your sake, you never have to go through anything like that. Major illness? Our local paper today had a story about a guy, 42, in perfect health, who when covered, got a prescription for fungus on his toenails. He later tried to get individual coverage - and was rejected for a pre-existing condition. ([Cite.](http://www.insidebayarea.com/ci_15401885?IADID=Search-www.insidebayarea.com-www.insidebayarea.com)) To continue, remember that Anthem had proposed raising rates more than 20% before the law passed - and then found that the justification contained a teensy little arithmetic error. Oopsie. Odd though that those arguing for personal responsibility think the insurance companies have no responsibility at all in raising rates now in order to keep gouging? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2010, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-law-risks-turning-away-sick/545492/54 "2010-07-05T01:03:04Z")
I wonder if Sam and his friends would have supported increasing the funding of the temporary fund during the debate (more deficit!) or would have supported making the reforms cut in sooner? I somehow doubt it. The root cause of this complaint, I think, is not that there isn’t enough money allocated (simple to fix, no?) but that some worthless people who aren’t good enough or responsible enough to get coverage in the free market are going to be able to get care. Oh, the horror! ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2010, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-law-risks-turning-away-sick/545492/55 "2010-07-05T03:50:17Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Major illness? Our local paper today had a story about a guy, 42, in perfect health, who when covered, got a prescription for fungus on his toenails. He later tried to get individual coverage - and was rejected for a pre-existing condition. ([Cite.](http://www.insidebayarea.com/ci_15401885?IADID=Search-www.insidebayarea.com-www.insidebayarea.com)) > > To continue, remember that Anthem had proposed raising rates more than 20% before the law passed - and then found that the justification contained a teensy little arithmetic error. Oopsie. Odd though that those arguing for personal responsibility think the insurance companies have no responsibility at all in raising rates now in order to keep gouging? Then you have the problem where it costs less money to hire a lawyer and underwriter than to pay medical bills. So instead of paying $300,000 for medical bills the patient, hospital and health insurer end up spending $200,000 trying to figure out how to get paid by constantly suing each other. Something like 30-50% of our health care system is made up of waste. > **[A Look Inside the Health Insurance Industry Death Spiral](https://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/2/28/841466/-A-Look-Inside-the-Health-Insurance-Industry-Death-Spiral)** > > I thought I might be able to bring some additional insight into the death spiral discussion ... Private, for profit health insurance pretty much ended up destroying itself and painting itself into a corner due to bad business practices that made healthy individuals abandon coverage and large pools opt out for self coverage. The health insurance reform that just passed is going to keep the industry alive. I’m sure that was the trade off, the federal government keeps private, for profit insurance in business by mandating people buy it while blocking competition (ie no public option) if they do not oppose health insurance reform legislation. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2010, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-law-risks-turning-away-sick/545492/56 "2010-07-05T04:19:43Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Your deductible, plus your monthly premiums, plus any balance that your insurance company doesn’t cover is probably less. There is always a chance that your COBRA coverage was terrible, in which case you should inform your old employer that he’s paying for [haga](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0082198/quotes?qt0446948) what? Seriously, what are you talking about? The math is straight forward. I pay less for a personal policy, including the deductible, than I paid with COBRA. Since I haven’t had to use it I’m saving the deductible too. > [@Lobohan](#): > > So you didn’t change policies, but paid someone to look over policies. But your current policy isn’t your COBRA policy? > > You need to get clear on what you did before arguing about it. I was clear. I dropped COBRA for a private policy. I did so because it was cheaper even with the deductible. I used a financial planner to research the polices. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2010, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-law-risks-turning-away-sick/545492/57 "2010-07-05T04:29:53Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Of course, if you do suffer a major illness or accident and hit your deductible there’s a good chance the insurance company will do everything in their power to either dump you when renewal time comes up, leaving you without insurance entirely and damn little access to healthcare at all, or jack your rates up way more than the 20% you’re whining about today. The good deal (?) lasts only so long as you _never need to use your insurance_. I don’t care how “responsible” you are, you aren’t immune to illness or accident. I just hope, for your sake, you never have to go through anything like that. I hope for everybody’s sake they don’t have to fight insurance companies, governments or space aliens. What’s your point? You think paying COBRA payments for an HMO makes sense when I can get more coverage for less money? If I have to pay the deductible I’m still ahead. I was already paying a doctor co-pay which was just slightly less than half what I’m charged for a cash visit. The savings is substantial. ---
**Author:** ![Sateryn76](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e4f/32.png) [@Sateryn76](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sateryn76)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2010, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-law-risks-turning-away-sick/545492/58 "2010-07-05T04:40:14Z")
By not being on my husband’s employer policy, we’re saving about $250 per month. Plus, we can use our HSA money for dental and vision, **which is what we actually need it for**. Huge thing to me above - they jacked up hubby’s insurance to add all of this prescription coverage, which is useless to us. We need money for glasses (4 sets of bad eyes in this family) and dental (we like to get regular checkups), and OB/gyn visits for me and checkups for everyone else. I’m really sorry we don’t have some horrid medical condition, but we don’t. Once this new plan goes into effect, we’ll be priced out of our HDCP, are “too rich” (seriously laughable) to qualify for any advantage on “The Exchange” and will be forced back into hubby’s policy, at a cost to us of $250 per month. Plus the extra money we now need to come up with for vision and dental. We’re getting fucked - how is this okay? Why should healthy, responsible people foot the bill? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2010, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-law-risks-turning-away-sick/545492/59 "2010-07-05T04:46:17Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > what? Seriously, what are you talking about? The math is straight forward. I pay less for a personal policy, including the deductible, than I paid with COBRA. Since I haven’t had to use it I’m saving the deductible too. Again, HDCPs aren’t less profitable for the insurance company. If the new plan is actually better coverage, it’s because the old plan was massively overpriced. Most likely you have a ton of little things that add up to make the new plan less valuable. It’s always possible that the new company has a different metric for your particular situation. > [@](#): > > I was clear. I dropped COBRA for a private policy. I did so because it was cheaper even with the deductible. I used a financial planner to research the polices. So you changed policies and the rate of the new policy went up. I was just confused by your phrasing. Cool beans. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2010, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-law-risks-turning-away-sick/545492/60 "2010-07-05T05:31:59Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Again, HDCPs aren’t less profitable for the insurance company. If the new plan is actually better coverage, it’s because the old plan was massively overpriced. Most likely you have a ton of little things that add up to make the new plan less valuable. It’s always possible that the new company has a different metric for your particular situation. The coverage is better because it’s more efficient to insure catastrophic costs than re-administer someone’s own money in the form of an HMO. All the expense of administering HMO’s are gone. There are no stipulations in my policy regarding which doctor I see. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-law-risks-turning-away-sick/545492.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/health-law-risks-turning-away-sick/545492.md?page=4)