Healthcare Myths in America

[Voyager]

@puddleglum

T
Preventative care only saves money on an individual level, system wide preventative care costsmoney. One of the reasons the US spends so much on healthcare is there is so much preventative care.

From here

According to the CDC, chronic diseases that are avoidable through preventive care services account for 75 percent of the nation’s healthcare spending and lower economic output in the US by $260 billion dollars a year. If everyone in the country received recommended clinical care, then the healthcare system could save over 100,000 lives a year.

So, if you are considering healthcare costs only, preventive care may not save a lot. If you count the economy as a whole, it does save a lot. Not counting reduction of suffering.

BTW, this blog from the UK notes that some preventive services might reduce income for providers by being cheaper.
It also notes

We do not actually know what the whole health and social care system currently spends on prevention. A figure of 4-5% is typically quoted for England, which roughly reflects the money spent on the public health grant as a proportion of total government spending on health.

5% is hardly nothing. The blog calls for more, but along the lines of trying to reduce obesity, not basic things like checkups and vaccination. I couldn’t find what we spend in the US for prevention, I did find an article saying that people don’t make use of available services now.

Malpractice insurance costs physicians 3.2% of revenue. Switching to a system like New Zealand would be a great idea but the amount of cost saving would be small. Since doctors and nurses make well above median income, any switch to government payed healthcare would mean their taxes would skyrocket and more than make up for any savings not having to pay for health insurance.

It is nice to see that you guys have given up blaming malpractice insurance for the crisis.

[DrDeth]

@Mijin

Cite of what? A negative?

I think you have misheard or misinterpreted what most people are saying in this context.
It’s not about emulating other countries.
It’s just a response to the idea that single-payer is unworkable: clearly it’s very much workable as it works in all manner of countries around the globe.

Yes. You made the claim, back it up, since I know you were wrong.

Who is saying here that it is unworkable?

And again, what works in a nation that size of a state may not work in a nation 100 times are large.

Still, like i said- I am 100% in favor of single payer. But using other nations is only hurting your case.

[DrDeth]

@Broomstick

It’s that “Denmark does it better” or “Germany does it better”, it’s that Denmark AND Germany AND France AND the UK AND Australia AND New Zealand, and Etc., and Etc., all do it better.

You have to wonder why the US is the only one that doesn’t… and it’s not because we’re getting better results because we aren’t.

Again, this argument is specious.

And many nations dont. Look at this map:

Here's a Map of the Countries That Provide Universal Health Care (America's...

[jasg]

@DrDeth

Again, this argument is specious.

And many nations dont. Look at this map:

Here's a Map of the Countries That Provide Universal Health Care (America's Still Not on It) - The Atlantic

From your link… we are in select company

The above map shows, in green, countries that administer some sort of universal health care plan. Most are through compulsory but government-subsidized public insurance plans, such as the UK’s National Health Service. Some countries that have socialized and ostensibly universal health care systems but do not actually apply them universally, for example in poverty- and corruption-rife states in Africa or Latin America, are not counted.

What’s astonishing is how cleanly the green and grey separate the developed nations from the developing, almost categorically. Nearly the entire developed world is colored, from Europe to the Asian powerhouses to South America’s southern cone to the Anglophone states of Australia, New Zealand, and Canada. The only developed outliers are a few still-troubled Balkan states, the Soviet-style autocracy of Belarus, and the U.S. of A., the richest nation in the world.

[Cheesesteak]

@DrDeth

And again, what works in a nation that size of a state may not work in a nation 100 times are large. .

How about 3-5 times as large? We’re about 4x the size of Germany. We can’t learn anything from what they’re doing?

Systems don’t scale up just fine from 300k citizens (Iceland) to 5 million (Norway) to 85 million (Germany) to 125 million (Japan) and then just mysteriously fall apart when you go to 325 million.

Is there some magic tipping point at 200 million that makes it suddenly too hard to manage? If there is, you are the one who is going to have to explain it, and not just handwave it away.
If there’s any reason why UHC isn’t feasible, it’s because half our government will actively sabotage it to ensure it’s a failure.

[DrDeth]

@Cheesesteak

If there’s any reason why UHC isn’t feasible, it’s because half our government will actively sabotage it to ensure it’s a failure.

Again, I am not arguing that Universal healthcare isnt a good idea. It is. But what I am saying is that “Hey they do it so we shoudl to” is a bad counterproductive argument. It hurts your argument, doesnt add to it at all.

[Broomstick]

You’ve got that backward. It’s NOT “they do it, we should too” it’s “if all those other people can make it work why can’t we?”

[kanicbird]

Before my travels I thought very highly of the US, From my travels, I’ve learned that most of that is BS. Healthcare is one of the most prime examples. We are paying for nothing but to line pockets. We are scared by others who benefit from this system into believing their are long waits in other countries while ignoring there are long waits here. Our heathcare in this nation is a disgrace. Yes people do get it, but as what cost and many still go without.

[wolfpup]

@DrDeth

Again, this argument is specious.

And many nations dont. Look at this map:

Here's a Map of the Countries That Provide Universal Health Care (America's Still Not on It) - The Atlantic

Wow, yeah. Look at how much of the world doesn’t have UHC. And here I’ve been arguing that most of the developed world has adopted UHC and that the US of A is a pathetic exception. Apparently not. The map shows us, for instance, that no guarantee of health care exists in the Democratic Republic of the Congo or its surrounding areas – the surrounding areas being Uganda, Rwanda, Burundi,Tanzania, Zambia, Angola, the Republic of the Congo, and the Atlantic Ocean. I think we can all acknowledge that the Atlantic Ocean has no quality health care whatsoever.

This reminds me of the argument we had regarding gun violence statistics by country, where you insisted that I was using a “selective” definition of what was meant by terms like “first world”, “industrialized”, or “developed country”. This was apparently because it suited your purposes to cite some gang-riddled lawless shithole as an example of a fine nation that had worse gun violence than the USA. You know what? On the subjects of either gun control or health care, I have no patience for those kinds of disingenuous arguments.

[Red_Wiggler]

@DrDeth

Again, I am not arguing that Universal healthcare isnt a good idea. It is. But what I am saying is that “Hey they do it so we shoudl to” is a bad counterproductive argument. It hurts your argument, doesnt add to it at all.

That’s a bad way to characterize the argument. It’s more like “these other countries have found great success with these kinds of systems, better than our own in many ways, so we should see if we could realize even greater successes with our large throbbing American creativity and know-how.”

[DrDeth]

@Broomstick

You’ve got that backward. It’s NOT “they do it, we should too” it’s “if all those other people can make it work why can’t we?”

We can, no one here is saying otherwise. But do we want to pay the price?

[DrDeth]

@wolfpup

Wow, yeah. Look at how much of the world doesn’t have UHC. And here I’ve been arguing that most of the developed world has adopted UHC and that the US of A is a pathetic exception. …
This reminds me of the argument we had regarding gun violence statistics by country, where you insisted that I was using a “selective” definition of what was meant by terms like “first world”, “industrialized”, or “developed country”. This was apparently because it suited your purposes to cite some gang-riddled lawless shithole as an example of a fine nation that had worse gun violence than the USA. …

That’s not the point. The point is that it was claimed that the USA was alone in not having Universal Health care. That is demonstrably false. In any case, this argument doesnt work-* it never has worked, it never will work*. It is counterproductive.

No, I cited EVERY NATION ON EARTH. You cherry picked.

[DrDeth]

@Red_Wiggler

That’s a bad way to characterize the argument. It’s more like “these other countries have found great success with these kinds of systems, better than our own in many ways, so we should see if we could realize even greater successes with our large throbbing American creativity and know-how.”

It is a counterproductive argument that loses people rather than gains support. And it is usually incorrect.

[DrDeth]

@wolfpup

… This was apparently because it suited your purposes to cite some gang-riddled lawless shithole as an example of a fine nation that had worse gun violence than the USA. …

You do realize you just called Mexico a "gang-riddled lawless shithole"- that sounds just like something Trump would say.

[Broomstick]

@DrDeth

We can, no one here is saying otherwise. But do we want to pay the price?

I do. In a heartbeat. But then, I’ve spent the last decades watching members of my family become ill and die in our jacked up “system”.

At worst it would cost no more than it does now, but cover many more people with less stress and wasted effort. More likely, we’d see some savings. I don’t think we’d see some of the more dramatic savings being claimed, but we’d see some.

[Wesley_Clark]

@DrDeth

That’s not the point. The point is that it was claimed that the USA was alone in not having Universal Health care. That is demonstrably false. In any case, this argument doesnt work-* it never has worked, it never will work*. It is counterproductive.

No, I cited EVERY NATION ON EARTH. You cherry picked.

Virtually every wealthy nation on earth has UHC.

Mexico implemented UHC in 2012. India and China are working on a UHC system.

The fact that the US is an outlier among wealthy nations is a factor. We tend to be an outlier among wealthy nations on various fronts.

[Banquet_Bear]

@DrDeth

The point is that it was claimed that the USA was alone in not having Universal Health care.

…which particular post are you referring too?

[DrDeth]

@Banquet_Bear

…which particular post are you referring too?

**Broomstick **

“You have to wonder why the US is the only one that doesn’t…”

[Cheesesteak]

@DrDeth

We can, no one here is saying otherwise. But do we want to pay the price?

Dude, if the effing republicans weren’t hell bent on sabotaging UHC there wouldn’t BE a price to pay. We would SAVE money and have better care overall. I know this because every country that has implemented UHC with an actual effort to make it work pays half what we do for health care.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Banquet_Bear]

@DrDeth

**Broomstick **

“You have to wonder why the US is the only one that doesn’t…”

…that wasn’t the claim that was made.