# Healthcare Reform Down In Flames? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 13, 2010, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-reform-down-in-flames/564004 "2010-12-13T17:45:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-reform-down-in-flames/564004/1 "2010-12-13T17:45:34Z")
> [@](#): > > The Obama administration’s requirement that most citizens maintain minimum health coverage as part of a broad overhaul of the industry is unconstitutional because it forces people to buy insurance, a federal judge ruled, striking down the linchpin of the president’s plan. [Ruling](http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-12-13/u-s-health-care-law-requirement-thrown-out-by-judge.html) Now what, other than the expected appeal? ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-reform-down-in-flames/564004/2 "2010-12-13T18:08:22Z")
Now it’ll go to scotus. I have absolutely no clue how they’ll rule, which in itself tells me that this isn’t the bulletproof piece of legislation it should’ve been. ---
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-reform-down-in-flames/564004/3 "2010-12-13T18:10:56Z")
I left this fairly open on purpose. I’m sure this will end up in the Supreme Court, but short of that: Would seem to me that if it does get punted back to Congress to rework, it will be with the upcoming Republican ruled House. I don’t see any way the Act could proceed without the mandate intact. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-reform-down-in-flames/564004/4 "2010-12-13T18:15:59Z")
If the Republicans get any pressure from their base to pass healthcare reform (and they might; most people want some sort of reform, they just don’t want it from no Amurikuh-hatin’ librul democrats), they would presumably want to make their bill a gift to big business. Hard to fathom how they could do a better job of that than the current act does. So the bill won’t change much, except that people will start liking it and Republicans will get to claim it as a victory. C’est la American politics. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-reform-down-in-flames/564004/5 "2010-12-13T18:31:37Z")
Doesn’t this ruling basically say that Social Security and Medicare are also unconstitutional? ---
**Author:** ![Markxxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@Markxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Markxxx)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-reform-down-in-flames/564004/6 "2010-12-13T18:41:49Z")
> [@L. G. Butts](#): > > Doesn’t this ruling basically say that Social Security and Medicare are also unconstitutional? The article says: > [@](#): > > U.S. District Judge Henry Hudson in Richmond, Virginia, said today that the requirement in President Barack Obama’s health-care legislation goes beyond Congress’s powers to regulate interstate commerce. So I guess one would say, do Social Security and Medicare involve interstate commerce? I don’t know about that, does anyone want to guess? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-reform-down-in-flames/564004/7 "2010-12-13T18:45:29Z")
> [@flickster](#): > > [Ruling](http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-12-13/u-s-health-care-law-requirement-thrown-out-by-judge.html) > > Now what, other than the expected appeal? It’s a district court. The ruling will probably be overturned on appeal before it ever gets to SCOTUS. ---
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-reform-down-in-flames/564004/8 "2010-12-13T18:46:01Z")
> [@L. G. Butts](#): > > Doesn’t this ruling basically say that Social Security and Medicare are also unconstitutional? Neither of those are mandated programs. SS is certainly optional for the self-employed. ---
**Author:** ![Spiff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spiff/32/9852_2.png) [@Spiff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiff)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-reform-down-in-flames/564004/9 "2010-12-13T18:53:13Z")
> [@flickster](#): > > SS is certainly optional for the self-employed. I don’t believe that is correct. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-reform-down-in-flames/564004/10 "2010-12-13T18:55:31Z")
> [@flickster](#): > > Neither of those are mandated programs. SS is certainly optional for the self-employed. ?? The issue is that SS and Medicare are funded through taxes, and this ruling says that compelling people to purchase insurance on their own is not the same as taxation. It’s a cluster fuck. I think most liberals would support a public option or insurance paid by taxes, but they could not get that through Congress so we ended up with this ugly mutt. ---
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-reform-down-in-flames/564004/11 "2010-12-13T19:02:58Z")
> [@Spiff](#): > > I don’t believe that is correct. You are correct, although I’m not sure how closely it’s enforced. > [@](#): > > Most U.S. workers are required to pay Social Security taxes on their earned income. For most taxpayers, Social Security taxes are deducted by their employers from each paycheck. When self employed, individuals who are not otherwise subject to Social Security withholding are required to file Schedule SE with their income tax returns if they had net earnings of $400 or more when self employed. Of course, this has little bearing on those working for cash under the table ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-reform-down-in-flames/564004/12 "2010-12-13T19:30:58Z")
> [@flickster](#): > > You are correct, although I’m not sure how closely it’s enforced. It’s enforced like any other tax law: you pay up or go to jail and/or pay hefty penalties if you get caught not paying it. And the rate for self-employed people is double the rate for wage earners because they have to pay what an employer would have paid on their behalf. I believe the current Social Security tax for self-employed people is around 16%. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-reform-down-in-flames/564004/13 "2010-12-13T19:32:34Z")
Well, good enough then. So long as the expansion of Medicaid is still here, it’s still a useful law. I voted against the Missouri referendum to void the individual mandate, but if it’s struck down in a narrow fashion leaving the rest of the law intact, I’m sanguine. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-reform-down-in-flames/564004/14 "2010-12-13T20:00:09Z")
I hope it is. As a “liberal” (at least compared to some), I found this legislation to be ridiculous for the very reason argued. I’m all for taxes going to fund all sorts of public works, but the idea that the government could mandate that I do business with a private entity flies in the face of what government is there for, IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-reform-down-in-flames/564004/15 "2010-12-13T20:01:17Z")
> [@flickster](#): > > Now what, other than the expected appeal? Our God Given second amendment remedies to activist judges? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-reform-down-in-flames/564004/16 "2010-12-13T20:10:08Z")
Don’t repeal, reload! ---
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-reform-down-in-flames/564004/17 "2010-12-13T20:18:47Z")
[ABC Poll](http://blogs.abcnews.com/thenumbers/2010/12/new-low-in-support-for-health-care-reform.html) **New Low in Support for Health Care Reform** > [@](#): > > The law’s never been popular, with support peaking at just 48 percent in November 2009. Today it’s slipped to 43 percent, numerically its lowest in ABC/Post polling. (It was about the same, 44 percent, a year ago.) Fifty-two percent are opposed, and that 9-point gap in favor of opposition is its largest on record since the latest debate over health care reform began in earnest in summer 2009. > > More also continue to “strongly” oppose the law than to strongly support it, 37 percent to 22 percent. ---
**Author:** ![Dallas\_Jones](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dallas_jones/32/3277_2.png) [@Dallas\_Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dallas_Jones)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-reform-down-in-flames/564004/18 "2010-12-13T20:20:34Z")
> [@sh1bu1](#): > > ?? > > The issue is that SS and Medicare are funded through taxes, and this ruling says that compelling people to purchase insurance on their own is not the same as taxation. It’s a cluster fuck. I think most liberals would support a public option or insurance paid by taxes, but they could not get that through Congress so we ended up with this ugly mutt. This is the problem in a nut shell. An honest approach of admitting that what we are talking about is a new and expensive social progam funded by taxes, and putting a number on those taxes, would have sent too many people screaming for the exits and the plan would have gone no where. The funds coming from the mandate-to-buy part of the plan are not included in estimates of costs to the tax payer and so the plan seems cheaper than it actually is. Without the money from the mandate to buy, the whole plan falls apart as unfundable without a large tax increase. If the mandate is thrown out and to money has to be replaced with taxes the plan will have to go back to the drawing board and may die there. ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-reform-down-in-flames/564004/19 "2010-12-13T20:36:54Z")
If it’s ruled unconstitutional to force people to buy insurance, would only that part die, or would the whole thing die? In other words, would parts of the reform, like eliminating preexisting conditions, still be in effect? ---
**Author:** ![Sycorax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a4c791/32.png) [@Sycorax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sycorax)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-reform-down-in-flames/564004/20 "2010-12-13T20:41:27Z")
If you’re 65 or older, you have to sign up for Medicare. Medicare and Soc. Sec. are funded partially by deductions from our paychecks. I’m forced (by local government) to pay property insurance (plus more $ to cover flooding and other potential destructive forces as determined by the insurance company) and auto accident insurance. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-reform-down-in-flames/564004.md?page=2)