# Healthcare Reform Down In Flames? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 13, 2010, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-reform-down-in-flames/564004 "2010-12-13T17:45:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![HRoark43](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/bc8723/32.png) [@HRoark43](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HRoark43)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-reform-down-in-flames/564004/221 "2010-12-15T23:39:42Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > [Angelina Jolie: Charity Work & Causes - Look to the Stars](http://www.looktothestars.org/celebrity/2-angelina-jolie) > > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpIYz8tfGjY](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpIYz8tfGjY) > “Boy, If Life Were Only Like This!” - Woody Allen in Annie Hall after producing Marshall McLuhan out of nowhere to show some loud critic that he was wrong abut McLuhan. > > So it is now, I love this internet era. Good. Then I believe we don’t need the Government involved in providing health care funding, right? We’ve got rich liberals who can handle that… right? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-reform-down-in-flames/564004/222 "2010-12-15T23:43:33Z")
> [@HRoark43](#): > > Good. Then I believe we don’t need the Government involved in providing health care funding, right? We’ve got rich liberals who can handle that… right? Well, we already know that you are an ignorant of many things, but the answer to that silly question is no, because not even the rich conservative tycoons of the past could do it for all, so we got at least Medicare. To minimize the effects of the coming health care cost bubble burst we have to reform health care even more. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-reform-down-in-flames/564004/223 "2010-12-15T23:45:37Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > I disagree with this. I assume you are referring to _Wickard_. That ruling said nothing about economic inactivity. I think that the individual mandate is akin to making a farmer grow wheat against his will. This seems like the exact opposite of _Wickard_. In Wickard, the federal government set quotas for how much wheat a farmer was allowed to grow, citing the effect of wheat supply in interstate commerce. Farmer Wickard grew more than his allotment of wheat. When charged, his defense was that he was using the wheat he grew in state – not only in state, but for his personal use only. The federal government, he said, could not regulate how much wheat he grew for personal use because that wheat never entered commerce, much less interstate commerce. The Supreme Court said that because Wickard would buy wheat for his own use if he didn’t grow it, and that the wheat he would buy would have traveled in interstate commerce, the federal government could regulate his growing of wheat. So no, this is not the opposite of Wickard. It’s right in line with Wickard. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-reform-down-in-flames/564004/224 "2010-12-16T00:15:01Z")
> [@HRoark43](#): > > I can afford my son’s chemotherapy if he were to ever need it. > > I’m not trying to be callous or flamebaitish here, but I have an honest question… if it’s his time to go it’s his time to go. If you can’t find the money to save his life why bring everyone else down in the process? Again, I’m not trying to troll, there is the whole natural selection thing. > > Seriously, if liberals disagree with that then why don’t they contribute more donations to such things? I don’t see Angelina Jolie (or name your other supposedly liberal icon) rushing out to help every time there’s a kid who needs chemotherapy. I visit dailykos and [moveon.org](http://moveon.org) and I rarely if ever see them headlining a charity drive for these kids. What gives? You’re right, that bitch is too busy worrying about kids in Africa. On the other hand Jennifer Aniston, Robin Williams , Morgan Freeman, George Lopez, Olympic gold medalist Shaun White, NBA star Dwyane Wade and many others have joined with Marlo Thomas to spread the message of St. Jude. ([cite](http://www.tg.stjude.org/celebrities/?video=freeman&tngsourcecode=THWSJHPDO11&plt=THWHSPOTDO1103)) Eva Longoria and Hayden Christensen also helped out with Rally For Kids with Cancer race. Emma Roberts, Ryan Shecklerm, and Tate Donovan donate to Childrens Cancer Research. Seriously, have you not heard of google? It’s fun, go to [www.google.com](http://www.google.com) and type in something like, oh, I don’t know, maybe something like “Brad Pitt & Angelina Jolie donate $1 million to Missouri hospital” and see what pops up. Probably nothing, or maybe you’ll see that the Pitt family donated money that "will go towards an endowment fund for pediatric oncology specialists, and the cancer unit will be renamed The Jane Pitt Pediatric Cancer Center. " And to save you the extra trouble of googling pediatric oncology, that means kids cancer. Googling by the way, is what people say when they use google to search something. ---
**Author:** ![HRoark43](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/bc8723/32.png) [@HRoark43](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HRoark43)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-reform-down-in-flames/564004/225 "2010-12-16T00:20:55Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Well, we already know that you are an ignorant of many things Good diversionary tactic. When you run out of logical defenses for the nanny state, just accuse the other side of ignorance! Ayup! > [@](#): > > but the answer to that silly question is no, because not even the rich conservative tycoons of the past could do it for all, so we got at least Medicare. It appears you don’t realize the severity of the problems facing Medicare. Some doctors refusing to even see Medicare patients… which is logical considering the way Medicare has been cutting payments to doctors for care. The Government is so stricken that they’ve been trying to enact _double-digit_ cuts in payments to doctors. Fortunately for those who need the nanny state, they managed to avert these cuts earlier this month, but the problems that prompted the drive for these cuts are still there. > [@](#): > > To minimize the effects of the coming health care cost bubble burst we have to reform health care even more. By getting Government out of it. Either that or more physicians will get out of it. The ignorant one humbly awaits your insightful responses on this issue. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-reform-down-in-flames/564004/226 "2010-12-16T00:33:58Z")
> [@HRoark43](#): > > Good diversionary tactic. When you run out of logical defenses for the nanny state, just accuse the other side of ignorance! Ayup! That was not an accusation. The posts demonstrated direct evidence of your ignorance regarding that item, attempting to deny that just gives all readers the justification to then ignore your posts from now on. ---
**Author:** ![HRoark43](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/bc8723/32.png) [@HRoark43](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HRoark43)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-reform-down-in-flames/564004/227 "2010-12-16T00:40:13Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > That was not an accusation. > > The posts demonstrated direct evidence of your ignorance regarding that item What ignorance? Where was I wrong? All you’ve managed to do here is say “your ignorance!” without explaining what part of what I said was so ignorant. > [@](#): > > attempting to deny that just gives all readers the justification to then ignore your posts from now on. So be it. I think more people will put you on ignore for failing to substantiate your claim that I am ignorant about this subject. As for your alleged ‘direct evidence’, once again you fail to show this ‘evidence’. ---
**Author:** ![HRoark43](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/bc8723/32.png) [@HRoark43](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HRoark43)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-reform-down-in-flames/564004/228 "2010-12-16T00:44:23Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > You’re right, that bitch is too busy worrying about kids in Africa. On the other hand Jennifer Aniston, Robin Williams , Morgan Freeman, George Lopez, Olympic gold medalist Shaun White, NBA star Dwyane Wade and many others have joined with Marlo Thomas to spread the message of St. Jude. ([cite](http://www.tg.stjude.org/celebrities/?video=freeman&tngsourcecode=THWSJHPDO11&plt=THWHSPOTDO1103)) > > Eva Longoria and Hayden Christensen also helped out with Rally For Kids with Cancer race. > > Emma Roberts, Ryan Shecklerm, and Tate Donovan donate to Childrens Cancer Research. > > Seriously, have you not heard of google? It’s fun, go to [www.google.com](http://www.google.com) and type in something like, oh, I don’t know, maybe something like “Brad Pitt & Angelina Jolie donate $1 million to Missouri hospital” and see what pops up. Probably nothing, or maybe you’ll see that the Pitt family donated money that "will go towards an endowment fund for pediatric oncology specialists, and the cancer unit will be renamed The Jane Pitt Pediatric Cancer Center. " > > And to save you the extra trouble of googling pediatric oncology, that means kids cancer. Googling by the way, is what people say when they use google to search something. Great! So you’ve proven to me that there are a lot of liberals who are contributing money to save the lives of people who need health care in America. I bow to your excellent research skills. So now can you explain to this ignorant man whose posts GIGObuster says should be ignored from now on … why do we need the Government to be in the business of confiscating people’s wealth to provide for charity when you can clearly smack me down so brilliantly with a list of googled examples of people willing to do it voluntarily? ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-reform-down-in-flames/564004/229 "2010-12-16T00:48:45Z")
> [@HRoark43](#): > > Great! So you’ve proven to me that there are a lot of liberals who are contributing money to save the lives of people who need health care in America. > > I bow to your excellent research skills. > > So now can you explain to this ignorant man whose posts GIGObuster says should be ignored from now on … why do we need the Government to be in the business of confiscating people’s wealth to provide for charity when you can clearly smack me down so brilliantly with a list of googled examples of people willing to do it voluntarily? I see a question mark, was there a question in all that? I did notice that you didn’t apologize for lying about Angelina Jolie. Would you like more help with your research skills? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-reform-down-in-flames/564004/230 "2010-12-16T00:51:49Z")
> [@HRoark43](#): > > What ignorance? Where was I wrong? All you’ve managed to do here is say “your ignorance!” without explaining what part of what I said was so ignorant. Even other poster did notice what it was, and it was mentioned by name by you, I will have to say that here you are just tap dancing around your demonstrated ignorance. > [@HRoark43](#): > > So be it. I think more people will put you on ignore for failing to substantiate your claim that I am ignorant about this subject. Not kosher to say in this message board that one will put someone on ignore (There is a difference between ignoring posts and ignoring a poster), but I guess you are ignorant of that too. > [@HRoark43](#): > > As for your alleged ‘direct evidence’, once again you fail to show this ‘evidence’. I guess Angelina Jolie and all the other stars will be happy that you are in reality harmless when attempting to defame people as you forget after a single post what you said. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![HRoark43](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/bc8723/32.png) [@HRoark43](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HRoark43)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-reform-down-in-flames/564004/231 "2010-12-16T01:02:34Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > I see a question mark, was there a question in all that? I did notice that you didn’t apologize for lying about Angelina Jolie. That’s because I did not lie about Angelina Jolie. I said I did not see her doing this. That much is quite true. That was not the same as saying that she absolutely does not do those things. > [@](#): > > Would you like more help with your research skills? I said I don’t see Angelina Jolie “rushing out to help every time there’s a kid who needs chemotherapy”. Even with all your research I doubt you can show that every kid who needs chemotherapy gets a monetary hand-up from a celebrity. If I google long enough I can probably find a number of examples of kids who died waiting for this care but that’s superfulous to the point of what I said. That said, I admire your research skills. Your research has not shown that we need the Government to help with health care; on the contrary in your rush to prove my ignorance you’ve shown more evidence of the point I was making: that we don’t need the Government to subsidize health care. What we need to reach all those kids who need chemotherapy or other expensive types of care, is more community involvement. Now please, slap me silly with more proof that celebrities come out to help kids in need. Strike me and my ignorance down! And prove my point even more that we don’t need the Government to pay for these things… ---
**Author:** ![HRoark43](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/bc8723/32.png) [@HRoark43](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HRoark43)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-reform-down-in-flames/564004/232 "2010-12-16T01:08:27Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Even other poster did notice what it was, and it was mentioned by name by you, I will have to say that here you are just tap dancing around your demonstrated ignorance. > Not kosher to say in this message board that one will put someone on ignore (There is a difference between ignoring posts and ignoring a poster), but I guess you are ignorant of that too. > I guess Angelina Jolie and all the other stars will be happy that you are in reality harmless when attempting to defame people as you forget after a single post what you said. 🙂 Name me one court in the land who will find me liable for defamation for saying I did not KNOW of any instance where Angelina Jolie did something (anything). I could say that I never saw her hanging out with Brad Pitt. I never saw her acting. I never heard of an Angelina Jolie, period! STILL not defamation. I’m sorry, maybe I’m being pedantic here. Where I come from, words mean things. What I did does not meet any reasonable definition of lying about AJ or defaming AJ. Granted, I certainly do not profess to use every single word according to its exact meaning, and I’m sure you’ll call me on that just like I’m calling you on it now. But at least show us your maturity here and admit I am not engaging in lying or defamation. Now, let’s get back to the point at hand. You have shown there are plenty of people out there who run charity drives for the sick and needy. Why do we need the Government to be involved? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-reform-down-in-flames/564004/233 "2010-12-16T01:10:19Z")
> [@HRoark43](#): > > Now please, slap me silly with more proof that celebrities come out to help kids in need. Strike me and my ignorance down! And prove my point even more that we don’t need the Government to pay for these things… Well, the reason why this effort to educate you looks silly is because you came showing a very ignorant hand, and this was **after several links were already given** even my me showing how private industry has failed to insure all Americans, it is wasting more money than other developed nations and it is limiting American jobs too. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-reform-down-in-flames/564004/234 "2010-12-16T01:14:16Z")
> [@HRoark43](#): > > That’s because I did not lie about Angelina Jolie. I said I did not see her doing this. That much is quite true. That was not the same as saying that she absolutely does not do those things. > I said I don’t see Angelina Jolie “rushing out to help every time there’s a kid who needs chemotherapy”. Even with all your research I doubt you can show that every kid who needs chemotherapy gets a monetary hand-up from a celebrity. If I google long enough I can probably find a number of examples of kids who died waiting for this care but that’s superfulous to the point of what I said. > > That said, I admire your research skills. Your research has not shown that we need the Government to help with health care; on the contrary in your rush to prove my ignorance you’ve shown more evidence of the point I was making: that we don’t need the Government to subsidize health care. What we need to reach all those kids who need chemotherapy or other expensive types of care, is more community involvement. > > Now please, slap me silly with more proof that celebrities come out to help kids in need. Strike me and my ignorance down! And prove my point even more that we don’t need the Government to pay for these things… The answer is right there in your post: we need gov’t because we don’t have enough celebrities. “If I google long enough I can probably find a number of examples of kids who died waiting for this care” You don’t have to Google very hard, that’s the other reason we need gov’t. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-reform-down-in-flames/564004/235 "2010-12-16T01:19:12Z")
> [@HRoark43](#): > > Name me one court in the land who will find me liable for defamation for saying I did not KNOW of any instance where Angelina Jolie did something (anything). I could say that I never saw her hanging out with Brad Pitt. I never saw her acting. I never heard of an Angelina Jolie, period! STILL not defamation Originally the beef was for nothing else than the ignorance demonstrated for all to see. Then you affirmed that that ignorance was alleged, in other words you knew that leftists stars do not do much for little kids with cancer. And no, it is not on a court that we will find you guilty of ignorance, just all others can see how silly it was to pretend that you did not make a sorry ignorant example. I have done my share of them before, but what I do is smack myself and admit that I was wrong, not to launch into “What ignorance? Where was I wrong?” excuses that show all that you are not really serious (I mean, do you really think readers of this board can not scroll up to notice your blunder?), in reality that move just makes it a bigger breach of forum etiquette. ---
**Author:** ![HRoark43](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/bc8723/32.png) [@HRoark43](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HRoark43)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-reform-down-in-flames/564004/236 "2010-12-16T01:23:12Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > The answer is right there in your post: we need gov’t because we don’t have enough celebrities. > > “If I google long enough I can probably find a number of examples of kids who died waiting for this care” > > You don’t have to Google very hard, that’s the other reason we need gov’t. As I already said, the reason why kids die for lack of being able to afford care is not that the Government isn’t responsive enough.. it’s that we need more community involvement. I do not believe I am inaccurate when I say that a fair number of those people coming to and from the big box stores this Yuletide season are liberals. Why can’t they spend that money on the needy if they are so adamant about the Government compelling us to be charitable? If these liberals did switch from rampant consumerism to charitable giving do you honestly believe we would be short money to save cancer or leukemia victims? These are sensible questions. But they may also be quite uncomfortable. Now: are you going to retract that claim that I lied about Angelina Jolie? ---
**Author:** ![HRoark43](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/bc8723/32.png) [@HRoark43](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HRoark43)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-reform-down-in-flames/564004/237 "2010-12-16T01:45:01Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Well, the reason why this effort to educate you looks silly is because you came showing a very ignorant hand More ignorant than anything you’ve posted here? I doubt that. All I said was I never saw Angelina Jolie rushing out to help stricken kids every time someone is in need; and technically speaking what I said is true, as some always manage to fall through the cracks. This is true even if you live in England with their NHS system of universal health care. Come to think of it do you know the survival rate of Americans versus British when it comes to cancer? This is relevant because they have the kind of universal health care you obviously want to see here. Now compare my technically factual statement to GIGOBuster’s ignorant accusation that I engaged in defamation or emacknight’s ignorant accusation that I lied about Angelina Jolie. Of course that’s not ignorant, right? Again, “ignorant hand” is a matter of opinion - and in your case, uninformed opinion. > [@](#): > > , and this was **after several links were already given** even my me showing how private industry has failed to insure all Americans, it is wasting more money than other developed nations and it is limiting American jobs too. Limiting American jobs? Oh boy, here we go again with that. They’re not American jobs. They’re jobs that belong to those who are hiring. The jobs are given to those who can compete the best for them. Maybe if you cut taxes you might find more people with money to donate to charity or to pay for health care. The Democrats aren’t doing anyone a favor by fighting the Bush tax cuts and taking more money out of the pockets of the very people you need to help you. You spend all this time accusing me of ignorance but you refuse to address the fact that there are now doctors who are refusing to take Medicare patients and Medicare has been flirting with double digit cuts in payments to doctors. Government solutions are not working. It’s bankrupting the system. We need less Government and more community involvement. ---
**Author:** ![HRoark43](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/bc8723/32.png) [@HRoark43](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HRoark43)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-reform-down-in-flames/564004/238 "2010-12-16T01:54:44Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Originally the beef was for nothing else than the ignorance demonstrated for all to see. You mean when I said I don’t see Angelina Jolie rushing to the aid of every stricken kid? That’s not ignorance, it’s fact. Some kids manage to fall through the cracks - both here and in places like Canada or England where the Government is quite heavily involved in health care funding. Liberal Hollywood stars cannot get to them all. Even the Government can’t afford to. > [@](#): > > Then you affirmed that that ignorance was alleged, in other words you knew that leftists stars do not do much for little kids with cancer. Wait, where did I say that? I said “I visit dailykos and [moveon.org](http://moveon.org) and I rarely if ever see them headlining a charity drive for these kids.” And I said “Seriously, if liberals disagree with that then why don’t they contribute more donations to such things?” That does not mean liberals don’t do much for little kids with cancer. It means they can do more. And judging by the millions that they have, they can do a LOT more. > [@](#): > > I have done my share of them before, but what I do is smack myself and admit that I was wrong, not to launch into “What ignorance? Where was I wrong?” excuses that show all that you are not really serious (I mean, do you really think readers of this board can not scroll up to notice your blunder?), in reality that move just makes it a bigger breach of forum etiquette. And then you come along and accuse me of defaming Angelina Jolie? You know what your problem is? You misinterpret what I say. I didn’t say Angelina Jolie doesn’t help kids in America. I said I did not SEE her rushing out to help ALL kids. And this is true - no one does. No one can. We cannot afford to. Not even the Government can. You showed your ignorance of what the term defamation means and yet you are sitting there judging me about ignorance? Really? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-reform-down-in-flames/564004/239 "2010-12-16T01:58:41Z")
> [@HRoark43](#): > > More ignorant than anything you’ve posted here? I doubt that. All I said was I never saw Angelina Jolie rushing out to help stricken kids every time someone is in need; and technically speaking what I said is true, as some always manage to fall through the cracks. This is true even if you live in England with their NHS system of universal health care. I will let others here be the judge of that, so far it is clear no one is coming forward to say you are right on that regard. [snip] > [@HRoark43](#): > > You spend all this time accusing me of ignorance but you refuse to address the fact that there are now doctors who are refusing to take Medicare patients and Medicare has been flirting with double digit cuts in payments to doctors. Government solutions are not working. It’s bankrupting the system. We need less Government and more community involvement. Most doctors see where are we going with the current system. (California PNHP’s President Dr. Jim Kahn’s testimony to the California Assembly Health Committee) [http://www.pnhp.org/news/2010/july/california-pnhps-president-dr-jim-kahn’s-testimony-to-the-california-assembly-health-](http://www.pnhp.org/news/2010/july/california-pnhps-president-dr-jim-kahn%E2%80%99s-testimony-to-the-california-assembly-health-) > [@](#): > > My colleagues and I have demonstrated that as much as 1 dollar in seven that goes into a medical office is used to collect payment – for contracting, billing, copayment collection, and repeated appeals of claim denials. Overall, for health care funded through the private insurance system, fully 38 cents of each dollar goes to administration and profits, leaving only 62 cents for clinical care. 20 cents is avoidable administration – which would mainly disappear with single payer. This translates to billions of dollars that become available to pay for health care – more than $200 billion per year in the United States, and $30 billion in California. > > That’s why economists like single payer – it improves the technical efficiency of providing health care. > > Why do physicians like single payer? In one national survey, published in the Annals of Internal Medicine, 59% said they support single payer reform. > > There are several reasons: > > - Doctors have long felt mistreated by insurers: unpayed or under-payed for delivered health care services. **Private insurers have a far worse payment track record than Medicare.
** > - Doctors resent the time they have to spend on billing and insurance-related administration – an average of nearly 60 minutes per day. They’d rather provide health care. > - Doctors would like to see that all patients have quality insurance that assures access to needed services. In this way, care decisions can reflect clinical decisions which take into account what care is needed, rather than financial constraints. > > When you put together administrative efficiency and doctors focused on providing care, you get lower costs and higher quality. > > The other rich democracies (the countries in the OECD) spend approximately half as much per person as we do on health care. Much of that savings is in lower administrative costs. > > And they have much better health care quality and outcomes. This was recently demonstrated again in a Commonwealth Fund multi-country study. > > In economics, it is often said that people are willing to pay for quality. In health care, we have the remarkable situation of how paying less – reducing the system’s fat – is the route to improved quality. > > The new federal health reform legislation, which expands private insurance, does not provide the benefits of single payer. It does, however, allow states to implement single payer. PNHP-California encourages you to do so. > > Thank you. [http://www.annals.org/content/148/1/55.full](http://www.annals.org/content/148/1/55.full) The ignorant bit is to assume that just because they sometimes refuse Medicare patients that means that they are against government intervention, they are not. ---
**Author:** ![HRoark43](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/bc8723/32.png) [@HRoark43](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HRoark43)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-reform-down-in-flames/564004/240 "2010-12-16T02:37:10Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > I will let others here be the judge of that, so far it is clear no one is coming forward to say you are right on that regard. So if I am not right, then: Everyone agrees that saying “I don’t see Angelina Jolie rushing to help EVERY kid” is lying about Angelina Jolie or defaming her. Everyone agrees that no kid who suffers from cancer fails to get money from a celebrity. Everyone agrees that Government provided health insurance catches all the kids who fall through the cracks. Gotcha. > [@](#): > > Most doctors see where are we going with the current system. > > (California PNHP’s President Dr. Jim Kahn’s testimony to the California Assembly Health Committee) > [http://www.pnhp.org/news/2010/july/california-pnhps-president-dr-jim-kahn’s-testimony-to-the-california-assembly-health-](http://www.pnhp.org/news/2010/july/california-pnhps-president-dr-jim-kahn%E2%80%99s-testimony-to-the-california-assembly-health-) > [http://www.annals.org/content/148/1/55.full](http://www.annals.org/content/148/1/55.full) > > The ignorant bit is to assume that just because they sometimes refuse Medicare patients that means that they are against government intervention, they are not. Oh boy. This cite again. Alright, physicians support the public option. Except when they decide to just leave the practice altogether for another more profitable practice. [http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2009-08-17-doctor-gp-shortage\_N.htm](http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2009-08-17-doctor-gp-shortage_N.htm) So instead of not having any money available for care, with the public option you will get long delays and still fall through the cracks. If you’re wondering why I’m bringing this up this has a major effect on your chances of surviving a medical crisis (such as cancer): [http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/secondhandsmoke/2009/07/21/most-cancer-survival-rates-in-usa-better-than-europe-and-canada/](http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/secondhandsmoke/2009/07/21/most-cancer-survival-rates-in-usa-better-than-europe-and-canada/) But hey, no one agrees with me. Even though the facts are right there in your face. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-reform-down-in-flames/564004.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-reform-down-in-flames/564004.md?page=13)