# Healthcare Reform Down In Flames? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 13, 2010, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-reform-down-in-flames/564004 "2010-12-13T17:45:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-reform-down-in-flames/564004/41 "2010-12-13T22:50:41Z")
> [@zamboniracer](#): > > If its true that 84% were happy with the healthcare system we had then nobody would’ve even tried to pass any reform. Actually, most people were happy with their health insurance, because most people weren’t sick. Of course people WITHOUT health insurance couldn’t be happy about it. ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-reform-down-in-flames/564004/42 "2010-12-13T22:59:55Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > Actually, most people were happy with their health insurance, because most people weren’t sick. Of course people WITHOUT health insurance couldn’t be happy about it. That will change as employer-provided plans change. I know my company has just massively increased the employer-contribution part of the plan to bring it in line with “industry averages”. If you’d like to see support for single-payer go up, I’d propose this: require employers that provide health care coverage to include its cost on a pay stub. I know for my rather large employer, health care and disability insurance is rated as about 10% of all employee compensation (how accurate this figure is, who knows). Show that as a flat deduction from every paycheck and folks might start wondering how Medicare can cover all of the oldest Americans for only 2.9% in Medicare withholding… ---
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-reform-down-in-flames/564004/43 "2010-12-13T23:05:09Z")
> [@DMC](#): > > Are you serious? Keep in mind that coverage isn’t the same thing as performing life-saving emergency medical treatment. I’m betting your neighborhood neurologist isn’t going to see you without insurance or money. Are you seriously under the impression that emergency rooms only treat patients when life threatening emergency treatment is required? You might want to go visit one some day and see how long the line is due to common ailments ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-reform-down-in-flames/564004/44 "2010-12-13T23:13:12Z")
> [@flickster](#): > > Are you seriously under the impression that emergency rooms only treat patients when life threatening emergency treatment is required? You might want to go visit one some day and see how long the line is due to common ailments Which falls directly into my approach (b) for reducing health-care costs - increasing efficiency. It is highly inefficient to use an Emergency Room to treat things better handled by a GP (or even a walk-in clinic with an RN). But for folks without health care, the ER is often the only place that will treat them (or they just wait on perfectly treatable diseases until it really _is_ an emergent condition for fear of inability to pay). ---
**Author:** ![Sateryn76](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e4f/32.png) [@Sateryn76](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sateryn76)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-reform-down-in-flames/564004/45 "2010-12-13T23:20:21Z")
> [@zamboniracer](#): > > If its true that 84% were happy with the healthcare system we had then nobody would’ve even tried to pass any reform. The fact of the matter is that that 84% number is spin. Most of the people were not happy with the healthcare system in January 2009. After all the deathpanel nonsense, the number who didn’t want it rose, as did the number who were dissatisfied with the plan because it didn’t go far enough. The Repubs combined the number who didn’t like it - including those who believed in death panels- added that group to the number who thought it didn’t go far enough, and conjured up a fact. IMHO. Here’s some poll numbers from that time period: University of Texas/Zogby - 6/18-22, 2009 = 84% of people are satisfied with their health care The Washington Post, 6/18-22, 2009 = 81% satisfied with insurance coverage, 88% satisfied with quality of care NYT, 6/12-16, 2009 = 77% are satisfied with quality of care Democracy Corps, “The Health Care Reform Debate”, 6/15, 2009 = 76% of self-identified independents, 72% of Democrats and 78% of Republicans are satisfied with their coverage Gallup, 12/4/08 = 83% of Americans say the quality of healthcare they receive is either ‘excellent’ or ‘good’ CNN/Opinion Research Poll, March 2009 = 73% of Americans were satisfied with their health insurance coverage ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-reform-down-in-flames/564004/46 "2010-12-13T23:21:51Z")
> [@flickster](#): > > Are you seriously under the impression that emergency rooms only treat patients when life threatening emergency treatment is required? Okay, then we’ll rephrase it to “coverage does not equal being able to get treated in an emergency room for some conditions without proof of ability to pay.” Is that better? Either way, your post wasn’t a valid response to the statement that was made. In 2003, while 16.6% of the population was uninsured, only 4.5% of hospital stays were uninsured. Again, that doesn’t equal “coverage.” Please, please, please let some politician spout this sort of bullshit. “We already have universal coverage because everyone can go to the emergency room.” > [@](#): > > You might want to go visit one some day and see how long the line is due to common ailments Since the uninsured account for about 1/5th of emergency room visits, those long lines aren’t on them, and plenty of insured people take little Johnny to the emergency room because he has sniffles. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-reform-down-in-flames/564004/47 "2010-12-13T23:26:02Z")
> [@Mighty\_Mouse](#): > > I’d like to see some politician come out and say that they are in favor of limiting mammograms or prostate cancer treatments, and having a medical necessity review board to determine whether you need that new drug, or are just as well off with the old, side effects be damned. You want to play chicken with the pharmaceutical companies over whether or not you will cover that new drug, you are going to have to be prepared to actually deny coverage to some patient, somewhere, or to simply expropriate the drug. Let’s see someone declare in advance that this is what single payer means. Yeah because right now there are no people that stand between you and a doctor to decide what treatments are paid for. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-reform-down-in-flames/564004/48 "2010-12-13T23:31:21Z")
> [@Jas09](#): > > I know for my rather large employer, health care and disability insurance is rated as about 10% of all employee compensation (how accurate this figure is, who knows). Show that as a flat deduction from every paycheck and folks might start wondering how Medicare can cover all of the oldest Americans for only 2.9% in Medicare withholding… There are a lot of reasons. Medicare taxes all Americans to pay for the oldest Americans. Your employer “taxes” only its employees to pay for its employees. Medicare coverage is not nearly as generous as most employer plans, which is why many employers offer Medicare supplementary coverage to retirees (and many other retirees purchase these policies on their own). The cost of Medicare (and many other government programs) is illusory, in that the rates providers can charge are set by the government. This means that some of the cost is effectively passed along to the private plans. Which means that some of the 10% cost of the private employer plans is really going to offset cuts to provider reimbursement for Medicare (& Medicaid, and charity care etc.), which make a higher number seem like 2.9%. Which is not to say that a lot of people won’t ask these questions. A lot will, and a lot of people look at things in a very simplistic manner. That’s why a lot of people believe politicians promising that “the government” will give them all sorts of things. Just vote for me … ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-reform-down-in-flames/564004/49 "2010-12-13T23:34:23Z")
> [@flickster](#): > > Really??? Seems odd then that those who are able always chose to come for treatment in the US when they have a serious health issue. This is false. “Medical tourism” is a growth industry for many countries. The super wealthy come to the United States. Middle class Americans go to Mexico, Brazil, Thailand, etc. More Europeans are also choosing to do so. I have a friend with a particularly nasty form of cancer who had to go to Europe to get the best treatment because they’re not available in the United States, not because they’re not approved, but because they were dismissed as not profitable enough. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-reform-down-in-flames/564004/50 "2010-12-13T23:37:42Z")
> [@Sateryn76](#): > > Here’s some poll numbers from that time period: > > University of Texas/Zogby - 6/18-22, 2009 = 84% of people are satisfied with their health care > > The Washington Post, 6/18-22, 2009 = 81% satisfied with insurance coverage, 88% satisfied with quality of care > > NYT, 6/12-16, 2009 = 77% are satisfied with quality of care > > Democracy Corps, “The Health Care Reform Debate”, 6/15, 2009 = 76% of self-identified independents, 72% of Democrats and 78% of Republicans are satisfied with their coverage > > Gallup, 12/4/08 = 83% of Americans say the quality of healthcare they receive is either ‘excellent’ or ‘good’ > > CNN/Opinion Research Poll, March 2009 = 73% of Americans were satisfied with their health insurance coverage Most people are not seriously sick. Most people have no preexisting conditions. Most people do not suffer catastrophic accidents. Most people happily pay their insurance premiums and cost the insurance company almost nothing year after year. This is completely meaningless to the healthcare debate and in no way shape or form addresses the need of reform. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-reform-down-in-flames/564004/51 "2010-12-13T23:41:48Z")
> [@DMC](#): > > Please, please, please let some politician spout this sort of bullshit. “We already have universal coverage because everyone can go to the emergency room.” You must be unaware of a quote by our illustrious former president George W. Bush in 2007, in a [speech in Cleveland](http://www.presidentialrhetoric.com/speeches/07.10.07.html): > [@Paragraph 16](#): > > The immediate goal is to make sure there are more people on private insurance plans. I mean, people have access to health care in America. After all, you just go to an emergency room. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-reform-down-in-flames/564004/52 "2010-12-13T23:44:48Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Yeah, socialist. Too funny. If Obama were after a socialist agenda, it would have been a single-payer universal plan. This is a big wet kiss to the private insurers. > > At least as many people dislike this “reform” bill because it doesn’t go anywhere near far enough to the left as dislike it because it’s too far left. I’m just telling you what a conservative would think. And I’d love to see some proof of your second statement, since it’s accepted as doctrine among so many on this board. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-reform-down-in-flames/564004/53 "2010-12-13T23:48:40Z")
> [@sh1bu1](#): > > Really? It wasn’t a problem that insurance costs are increasing faster than wages? It’s not a problem that insurance is not portable when you lose/change jobs or start a business? It’s not a problem that American companies have to pay more for workers’ insurance than other countries do, making our labor costs higher? It’s not a problem that a major reason for bankruptcy is health care costs? > > What _would_ a problem look like. > > The US pays far more for health care than any other industrialized country, yet we have worse results and do not cover everyone. Um yeah, [really](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/07/27/AR2009072701372.html). > [@](#): > > a Washington Post-ABC News poll of 1,001 adults in June that found that 83 percent were either “somewhat” or “very” satisfied with the care they receive and 81 percent felt the same way about their insurance. That’s not to say that they weren’t looking for reform. Just not the wholesale, baby-out-with-the-bathwater stuff that we got (again, from the eyes of the centrist American, which I understand is not the audience of this board). ---
**Author:** ![waterj2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@waterj2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waterj2)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-reform-down-in-flames/564004/54 "2010-12-13T23:49:52Z")
When I saw this earlier today, I was just happy that here in Massachusetts, we have a statewide individual mandate, so if the rest of the country gets caught in an “insurance death spiral” I should be fine. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-reform-down-in-flames/564004/55 "2010-12-13T23:52:52Z")
> [@zamboniracer](#): > > If its true that 84% were happy with the healthcare system we had then nobody would’ve even tried to pass any reform. The fact of the matter is that that 84% number is spin. Most of the people were not happy with the healthcare system in January 2009. After all the deathpanel nonsense, the number who didn’t want it rose, as did the number who were dissatisfied with the plan because it didn’t go far enough. The Repubs combined the number who didn’t like it - including those who believed in death panels- added that group to the number who thought it didn’t go far enough, and conjured up a fact. IMHO. Read my post again. Happy with _ **their** _ healthcare. Most people who lose arguments in the court of public opinion like to blame the media, the opposition was working the refs, etc. Whatever. I’ve never seen anyone stump for anything as much as Obama went after this. The country talked about nearly nothing else for a few months (which is unfortunate, since he should have been focusing on the economy, which is why he got the asswhuppin 5 weeks ago). Maybe the people just dont want government so heavy-handed in something like this. Heresy to a liberal, sure. But America’s not a liberal country - if anything, they are center-right. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2010, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-reform-down-in-flames/564004/56 "2010-12-14T00:30:45Z")
This makes good news and talk-show fodder. I’m sure there are lots of Pubbies that will be going on about how this validates their earlier statements about the constitutionality of the HCRB. But I’ll be very surprised if this ruling holds up on appeal, especially to the SCOTUS. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2010, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-reform-down-in-flames/564004/57 "2010-12-14T00:42:25Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > This makes good news and talk-show fodder. I’m sure there are lots of Pubbies that will be going on about how this validates their earlier statements about the constitutionality of the HCRB. But I’ll be very surprised if this ruling holds up on appeal, especially to the SCOTUS. In Michigan and in, of all places, Virginia, there have already been two decisions upholding the law. This makes it, to the best of my knowledge, 2-1 for. Odd that those decisions are not mentioned by the liberal media. It’s definitely going to the Supreme Court, and I see no reason for anyone to start celebrating. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2010, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-reform-down-in-flames/564004/58 "2010-12-14T00:46:27Z")
I think we should follow the pattern of our cousin language, German, and just make “liberalmedia” one word. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2010, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-reform-down-in-flames/564004/59 "2010-12-14T00:55:38Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > Read my post again. Happy with _ **their** _ healthcare. > > Most people who lose arguments in the court of public opinion like to blame the media, the opposition was working the refs, etc. Whatever. > > I’ve never seen anyone stump for anything as much as Obama went after this. The country talked about nearly nothing else for a few months (which is unfortunate, since he should have been focusing on the economy, which is why he got the asswhuppin 5 weeks ago). > > Maybe the people just dont want government so heavy-handed in something like this. Heresy to a liberal, sure. But America’s not a liberal country - if anything, they are center-right. Well, forsure they never want to understand that conservatively speaking we are wasting a lot with the current system we have. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/auSFX0o3uFU/maxresdefault.jpg "Hans Rosling's answers to the TED and Reddit community interview") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auSFX0o3uFU) ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2010, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-reform-down-in-flames/564004/60 "2010-12-14T01:01:31Z")
Kinda silly. We could just go ask Justice Kennedy now whether its constitutional or not and basically resolve the whole issue by next afternoon. Instead the things going to wind its way through the courts in 21 states taking multiple years, I can only imagine how many multiple millions of dollars, thousands of manhours in lawyer and judge time, finally make it to the SCOTUS, at which point the liberal justices will vote for the bills constitutionality, the four conservatives will vote against, and Justice Kennedy will decide the issue anyways. Its gotta be some sort of record for inefficiency. Its like a Rube Goldberg machine for getting an old mans opinion. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-reform-down-in-flames/564004.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-reform-down-in-flames/564004.md?page=4)