# Healthcare Reform Down In Flames? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 13, 2010, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-reform-down-in-flames/564004 "2010-12-13T17:45:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-reform-down-in-flames/564004/161 "2010-12-15T05:21:44Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > And OK maybe ‘happy’ isn’t the right word, **Run DMC**. We’ll go with ‘satisfied enough that they don’t want the feds fucking around with a system that serves them pretty well, all things considered’. Again, perhaps you should read the source of your claims, the source that I actually provided a link for. People want the government involved in all sorts of health care issues, including increased spending in many areas. They may not like “Obamacare” in particular (hell, I don’t), but that’s likely a product of misinformation as much as anything for many of them. See, I can make shit up as well, although the shit I make up will be much harder to disprove than your claims and while I do have evidence in my favor, I acknowledge that I can’t back up that particular statement with absolute certainty. Since almost half of those polled in an NBC/WSJ poll from 2009 think “death panels” are part of the package, I’m going to go with my take. When [said poll](http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/MSNBC/Sections/NEWS/NBC-WSJ_Poll.pdf) (PDF) says that 47% of the public doesn’t like how Obama is handling the health care issue, but 62% don’t like how the Republicans are handling it, I’m pretty sure that that doesn’t say that people want government out of it, and in fact, roughly the same number of people want the public option as those that oppose it. The numbers say that some do, and some, like me, want the government in it, but differently. Additionally, when they give a brief overview of what the plan actually does, the majority are actually in favor of it. Look ma, cites. Also note, that the question in the earlier linked poll that was the source of your invalid claims was not specifically about their health insurance, but their health care, which is a pretty vague term. So, 83.5% of the population is “somewhat satisfied” or greater with their health care. The middle-class uninsured that might spend a couple of hundred dollars on an occasional visit might be perfectly happy with their health care, but think the health insurance industry is a scam. The perfectly healthy uninsured that haven’t been to a doctor in decades might be satisfied with their health care. None of those things means they wouldn’t like single payer, especially when educated on how it actually works. ---
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-reform-down-in-flames/564004/162 "2010-12-15T05:42:42Z")
> [@sh1bu1](#): > > But that only applies if your new company offers benefits and if they hire you full time (many jobs these days are not full time to avoid paying benefits) and if you are not starting your own business (or consulting). The poster’s premise was that his friend was locked into their current job and unable to leave. Which I guess would be true if they were wishing to leave a position where they had benefits for one where that wouldn’t be available (which would seem foolish to me for someone with serious health issues, but I’ll play along). However, they would still be able to maintain their existing coverage via COBRA, but would most likely be paying higher premiums in order to do so. ---
**Author:** ![jasg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f0a364/32.png) [@jasg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jasg)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-reform-down-in-flames/564004/163 "2010-12-15T06:10:48Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > A short coverage delay is offset by COBRA coverage for the month that isn’t covered, so he retains his current coverage at the same cost it was the prior month. > [@sh1bu1](#): > > And BTW, COBRA does not offer former employees insurance at the same cost they were paying before, you have to pay the employers contribution as well. And you are paying fro it with post-tax dollars. I can illustrate this with real life numbers. I lost my job 18 months ago, pre-layoff it cost $55/month for coverage for the two of us. Cobra cost us $985/month. I am now paying for private coverage and am at risk for recission, denials of treatment and all the wonderful insecurities of individual coverage. IIRC from another thread, Mr. Bricker is to be envied. He has guaranteed [participation](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12079252&postcount=92) in his current plan for life - even if he loses his job. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-reform-down-in-flames/564004/164 "2010-12-15T06:19:26Z")
[Category: DC - TPM – Talking Points Memo](http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/12/amateur-hour-va-judge-makes-elementary-error-in-health-care-ruling.php?ref=fpa) This story says the judges decision suffers from a fundamental flaw. Then it will be overturned. ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-reform-down-in-flames/564004/165 "2010-12-15T06:48:16Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > Poor analogy. > > Public Education is funded at the State level, not the Federal level. I can change states. > > Public Education funding levels differ from District to District. > > Public Education has locally elected school boards that can change. > > I can vote for local bonds and taxes that directly benefit my school. > > I can choose from charter schools, magnet schools, alternative schools, speciality schools all within my district. > > I can choose to send my kids to private school. > > To compare to UHC at the Federal level you get caught up in too many areas. Finally, WHAT UHC model do you take (Germany, France, various provinces of Canada, the UK)? What do you think would happen if U.S Department of Education stopped appropriations to States for the upcoming fiscal year? How many States could continue to provide public education without federal assistance? ---
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-reform-down-in-flames/564004/166 "2010-12-15T13:14:15Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > What do you think would happen if U.S Department of Education stopped appropriations to States for the upcoming fiscal year? How many States could continue to provide public education without federal assistance? Does that also mean that the states would be free of Federal mandates? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-reform-down-in-flames/564004/167 "2010-12-15T13:35:25Z")
> [@flickster](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > What do you think would happen if U.S Department of Education stopped appropriations to States for the upcoming fiscal year? How many States could continue to provide public education without federal assistance? > > Does that also mean that the states would be free of Federal mandates? Does it also mean the states would get the tax dollars that currently get collected and handed back out at the federal level? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-reform-down-in-flames/564004/168 "2010-12-15T14:06:18Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > And there I see that you are not living in the current world. > > I wish I had the previous job with benefits, but I have to keep my head above the water with the current part time job (many Americans have nowadays) with no benefits. > > And yet I do not see it as a detriment, I’m learning a lot in the sense that I could become by own boss in the educational field in the future and if the economy improves, but I will have to knock on wood for a while that I do come down with a disease or suffer an accident, and seeing how you are so prone to very silly presumptions, I will have to assume you suppose that people like me deserves that. (Interesting that I do get educational training as a benefit of my no-health care benefits job, that makes business sense, but the health care is not.) > > Now why this growth in by cranium is not going away? I have no idea what you “deserve,” but I don’t believe you “deserve” to have me pay for your health insurance. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-reform-down-in-flames/564004/169 "2010-12-15T14:09:32Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I have no idea what you “deserve,” but I don’t believe you “deserve” to have me pay for your health insurance. I also don’t much believe it is fair to pay for the Medicare of your later years, but I think it makes common sense compared to what was happening when that was not available. And the reality is that you and many that support the efforts to dismantle any reform are in reality tying an arm of America to their back, and that is shown in the evidence that the current system makes America less effective in creating jobs and competing with the world. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-reform-down-in-flames/564004/170 "2010-12-15T14:10:27Z")
> [@sh1bu1](#): > > But that only applies if your new company offers benefits and if they hire you full time (many jobs these days are not full time to avoid paying benefits) and if you are not starting your own business (or consulting). > > And BTW, COBRA does not offer former employees insurance at the same cost they were paying before, you have to pay the employers contribution as well. And you are paying fro it with post-tax dollars. I said: “…so he retains his current coverage at the same cost it was the prior month.” I did NOT say, “…so he retains his current coverage at the same expense to him that it was the prior month.” The cost of the coverage remains the same. He has to cover both the employer’s share as well as his own. But that makes perfect sense – the employer’s share was a portion of his compensation, just like his salary and vacation time accruals. You’re not upset that after he loses his job he longer gets paid salary or earns vacation days, I assume. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-reform-down-in-flames/564004/171 "2010-12-15T14:14:35Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > Is there any more reason to believe that the reasons for opposing Obama’s healthcare plan have anything more to do with ‘grave constitutional matters’ than to believe all the noble reasons were told were behind our invasion of Iraq ? > I’m just not seeing much call for being charitable to the Republicans on this one. They’ve repeatedly said they want Obama to fail, and IMHO, have done considerable damage to the national interest in working toward that goal. > Why isn’t this latest judicial attack just more of the same? [Argument from ignorance.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance) You assert a fact, and when asked to cite it, say that we don’t know it ISN’T true. That’s not how argument works. You must supply evidence in favor of your claim. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-reform-down-in-flames/564004/172 "2010-12-15T14:15:10Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The cost of the coverage remains the same. He has to cover both the employer’s share as well as his own. But that makes perfect sense – the employer’s share was a portion of his compensation, just like his salary and vacation time accruals. You’re not upset that after he loses his job he longer gets paid salary or earns vacation days, I assume. Yeah, but similar to what you “assumed” before, if a benefit is there it would be foolish not to use it, it is hardly hypocritical as it seems you are assuming here. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-reform-down-in-flames/564004/173 "2010-12-15T14:18:21Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > [Argument from ignorance.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance) You assert a fact, and when asked to cite it, say that we don’t know it ISN’T true. > > That’s not how argument works. You must supply evidence in favor of your claim. I’m not \*\*Squink \*\* but I already did show evidence that jobs are being lost with the health care system we have, indeed causing considerable damage to America. The ignorance is somewhere elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-reform-down-in-flames/564004/174 "2010-12-15T14:19:47Z")
> [@sh1bu1](#): > > But that only applies if your new company offers benefits and if they hire you full time (many jobs these days are not full time to avoid paying benefits) and if you are not starting your own business (or consulting). > > And BTW, COBRA does not offer former employees insurance at the same cost they were paying before, you have to pay the employers contribution as well. And you are paying fro it with post-tax dollars. So what? How does that translate to “trapped” at a job? I’m “trapped” in the same way if the new company doesn’t provide a company car. I need a car, so I’ll have to buy one, an expense of thousands of dollars – much more than COBRA for one month. But you’d never have the bare-faced gall to claim that you’re trapped in a job because other jobs don’t offer you a company car. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-reform-down-in-flames/564004/175 "2010-12-15T14:20:49Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > I’m not \*\*Squink \*\* but I already did show evidence that jobs are being lost with the health care system we have, indeed causing considerable damage to America. The ignorance is somewhere elsewhere. And I didn’t ask for a cite from you on that point, so you’re rebutting a claim I never made. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-reform-down-in-flames/564004/176 "2010-12-15T14:24:00Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > I will have to add that \*\*Bricker \*\*doesn’t seem to remember what a stretcher and twister of the truth is the Virginia Prosecutor, strange as he also acknowledged in the Pit thread about Cuccinelli (Already linked) that Cuccinelli is prone of using silly (or extremely misleading or fake research) fig leaves in his attempts to get his way on the courts. How is that remotely relevant? Do you believe that Cuccinelli won because he batted his eyes at the judges and said, “Trust me, this is true?” The case was decided on summary judgment. That means that there were no facts in dispute. The question was entirely one of law. There was no “misleading” or “fake” research in evidence, because there were no factual disputes. For the purpose of the decision, the judge assumed true every single one of the federal government’s claims. So what does your post have to do with anything? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-reform-down-in-flames/564004/177 "2010-12-15T14:32:01Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > How is that remotely relevant? Do you believe that Cuccinelli won because he batted his eyes at the judges and said, “Trust me, this is true?” > > The case was decided on summary judgment. That means that there were no facts in dispute. The question was entirely one of law. There was no “misleading” or “fake” research in evidence, because there were no factual disputes. For the purpose of the decision, the judge assumed true every single one of the federal government’s claims. > > So what does your post have to do with anything? I base that on the post \*\*elucidator \*\*made, to me it is very likely that the judge made a mistake and yes, with a troglodyte guy like Cuccinelli I would say that he gave the judge information that was misleading. Or both Cuccinelli and the Judge trust no one else will notice the mistakes made. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-reform-down-in-flames/564004/178 "2010-12-15T14:34:48Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > And I didn’t ask for a cite from you on that point, so you’re rebutting a claim I never made. [QUOTE=Bricker] They’ve repeatedly said they want Obama to fail, and IMHO, have done considerable damage to the national interest in working toward that goal. [/QUOTE] I was replying to the implication that you don’t consider this to be causing considerable damage to the national interest. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-reform-down-in-flames/564004/179 "2010-12-15T14:34:51Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > [http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/12/amateur-hour-va-judge-makes-elementary-error-in-health-care-ruling.php?ref=fpa](http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/12/amateur-hour-va-judge-makes-elementary-error-in-health-care-ruling.php?ref=fpa) This story says the judges decision suffers from a fundamental flaw. > Then it will be overturned. Is this like your last [legal analysis](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12322310&postcount=266), where you asserted the ACORN law was a bill of attainder because you read it somewhere? How did that one work out for you? The problem in the judge’s decision is not a “logical flaw.” It’s that the decision rolls back precedent to the 1940s. The decision is perfectly logical. It just uses a view of the Commerce Clause that the Supreme Court rejected sixty years ago. I wish they hadn’t, and I’d love them to take this chance to rethink their idea. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-reform-down-in-flames/564004/180 "2010-12-15T14:37:00Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > I base that on the post \*\*elucidator \*\*made, to me it is very likely that the judge made a mistake and yes, with a troglodyte guy like Cuccinelli I would say that he gave the judge information that was misleading. Again: the judge assumed that all the factual claims made by the federal government were true. What information, specifically, did you contend Cuccinelli gave the judge? And this is Great Debates. If your argument is that “to you” the judge made a mistake, go peddle that in IMHO. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-reform-down-in-flames/564004.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-reform-down-in-flames/564004.md?page=10)