# Healthcare - The More I Learn the More Disgusted I Become **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 26, 2009, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-the-more-i-learn-the-more-disgusted-i-become/511687 "2009-09-26T22:53:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2009, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-the-more-i-learn-the-more-disgusted-i-become/511687/241 "2009-09-30T20:55:51Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > The horror! I’m paying for someone else’s medical services! Oh no!) Ten years ago I bought a Jeep. A significant part of it was built in Canada. Does that mean that I paid for someone else’s healthcare IN ANOTHER COUNTRY? :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2009, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-the-more-i-learn-the-more-disgusted-i-become/511687/242 "2009-09-30T21:06:30Z")
Get used to doing that, as more companies move up here to take advantage of a healthy, educated workforce. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2009, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-the-more-i-learn-the-more-disgusted-i-become/511687/243 "2009-09-30T21:24:22Z")
It makes for an interesting question. Would you rather have (USA) a slightly higher standard of living, job mobility restricted by health insurance availability, a far greater chance of not having appropriate health care, a far greater chance of bankruptcy due to insufficient health insurance, and a slightly shorter and less healthy life; or would you rather have (Canada) a slightly lower standard of living, unrestricted job mobility, appropriate health care, almost no bankruptcy caused by insufficient health insurance, and a slightly longer and healthier life? ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2009, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-the-more-i-learn-the-more-disgusted-i-become/511687/244 "2009-09-30T21:30:33Z")
Jesus, it’s barely a question at all. The only people who move to the US are economic migrants; either for super high salaries or to escape the third world. You go to Canada for a better quality of life for your family. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2009, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-the-more-i-learn-the-more-disgusted-i-become/511687/245 "2009-09-30T21:53:48Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > It makes for an interesting question. Would you rather have (USA) a slightly higher standard of living, job mobility restricted by health insurance availability, a far greater chance of not having appropriate health care, a far greater chance of bankruptcy due to insufficient health insurance, and a slightly shorter and less healthy life; or would you rather have (Canada) a slightly lower standard of living, unrestricted job mobility, appropriate health care, almost no bankruptcy caused by insufficient health insurance, and a slightly longer and healthier life? A slightly higher/lower standard of living defined how? In terms of pure income, translated without taking McD Dollars into account? Or in terms of “how many times per week can you and your family afford to eat chicken”? Because once you use McD$, I’m not sure whether the Canadian standard of living is lower. (Mark Twain explained the concept of McD Dollars in “A Connecticut Yankee” waaay before the Goldern Arches were invented) ---
**Author:** ![purplehorseshoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/purplehorseshoe/32/2996_2.png) [@purplehorseshoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehorseshoe)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2009, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-the-more-i-learn-the-more-disgusted-i-become/511687/246 "2009-09-30T22:20:03Z")
::sigh:: This thread really typifies the whole health-care-reform movement. Look how quickly it devolved into long-winded filibusters, name-calling, frothing at various mouths. Have any useful suggestions been aired? Like, how to fix this mess? Nope, more name-calling, more long-winded filibusters, more frothing. Meanwhile, people like me still have no affordable access to health care of any kind. Everyone gets their panties in a bunch and raises their hackles attacking this or that big-name talking head, or defending their favorite talking head, and meanwhile, people like me STILL have no affordable access to health care of any kind. This is not some theoretical game where you have the leisure to air all your petty greivances. This is serious stuff, people. Dopers, this is technically addressed to you, but in my heart, it’s addressed to the people in charge of fixing this mess. The politicians making the laws, the CEOs running the insurance companies … who else? ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2009, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-the-more-i-learn-the-more-disgusted-i-become/511687/247 "2009-09-30T23:28:27Z")
> [@ntucker](#): > > Is that _paid_ maternity leave? It’s through Employment Insurance - I think they get 60 or 75% (I don’t know the exact amount) of their income (plus their job is assured when they come back). ETA: Or you could look at the link (sorry - I should click before answering). ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2009, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-the-more-i-learn-the-more-disgusted-i-become/511687/248 "2009-09-30T23:32:01Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > It makes for an interesting question. Would you rather have (USA) a slightly higher standard of living, job mobility restricted by health insurance availability, a far greater chance of not having appropriate health care, a far greater chance of bankruptcy due to insufficient health insurance, and a slightly shorter and less healthy life; or would you rather have (Canada) a slightly lower standard of living, unrestricted job mobility, appropriate health care, almost no bankruptcy caused by insufficient health insurance, and a slightly longer and healthier life? It occurs to me we should shut our pieholes - we don’t want the whole world immigrating here. Hey, how about those -30ºC winters? They sure last a long time. ---
**Author:** ![spinky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@spinky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spinky)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2009, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-the-more-i-learn-the-more-disgusted-i-become/511687/249 "2009-09-30T23:34:46Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > It occurs to me we should shut our pieholes - we don’t want the whole world immigrating here. > > Hey, how about those -30ºC winters? They sure last a long time. Hey, you don’t have to worry about **us**. SugarPlum is always bugging me to move somewhere _warmer_. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2009, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-the-more-i-learn-the-more-disgusted-i-become/511687/250 "2009-09-30T23:54:16Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > It occurs to me we should shut our pieholes - we don’t want the whole world immigrating here. > > Hey, how about those -30ºC winters? They sure last a long time. Yes! Yes! Yes! Bring it on, baby! It snowed up the road in Manitouwadge yesterday. Last night I read the season’s first issue of SBC Skier magazine. Today I hiked up the cross country ski trails on the mesa across the valley to get some pics of the lift area ski hills by my place on the mesas on my side of the valley. I want winter, and I want it now! [Muffin stamps his little ski boot shod hoofies and waves his ski pole menacingly] ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2009, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-the-more-i-learn-the-more-disgusted-i-become/511687/251 "2009-09-30T23:58:27Z")
Come to think of it, when I was banged up skiing and ended up on the operating table (I couldn’t handle a compression the first time I raced in the nationals), the medical care was immediate, truly excellent, and did not cost me one red cent. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2009, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-the-more-i-learn-the-more-disgusted-i-become/511687/252 "2009-10-01T00:21:44Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > What the hell are you talking about? Do you think I saw a Michael Moore film one day and became convinced of the evil of conservatives? I spent most of my adult life as extremely anti-socialist, anti-government, and advocating fiscal conservative policy and government restraint. My attitude largely hasn’t changed (it has on some specific issues as I’ve learned more about them) - but one of two things happened along the way. > > Either the conservative movement went badshit crazy over the last decade or so, or they’ve always been bat shit crazy, saying the right things but doing the wrong things, and I haven’t really seen it for what it is. I suspect it’s more the former than the latter. I think the utter failure of the 2000s under the Republican government has inflicted cognitive dissonance on people. They feel a need to blindly support their side, but their side has betrayed them in terms of what they said they stood for vs what they actually stood for - and it’s very difficult to be introspective and admit you were wrong so instead so instead you ramp up the hatred in the hopes that it distracts them from the potential internal crisis they could face. > > I’ve never identified myself as a full on theocrat/neocon type conservative, but generally people with libertarian leanings were traditionally considered conservatives, so I felt that if indeed I had to limit myself to picking one of two factions, then I was ideologically conservative. No one told me what to think of conservatives - I watched in horror as they gained control over the government and made the decade a clusterfuck, and in response to this, their base, rather than jumping ship or attempting to get the train back on track, actually rallied behind them, and became even more ignorant and hateful. I am utterly disgusted by the behavior of those I once loosely considered allies. You know, I’ll concede one point to **Starving Artist** –I think (hope) that he’s probably right that there are many millions of Americans who are conservatives who are not frothing at the mouth crazy, and who genuinely just disagree with the ideas of their fellow Americans who are liberal or progressive or leftist or what-you-will. It’s not “conservatives”, it’s _Republicans_–the Republican Party apparatus and its various formally or informally affiliated organizations, think tanks, communications channels (FOX News), and so on–who appear to have become totally deranged. Recent polling has shown that the number of self-identified Republicans has drastically shrunk, and yet–speaking as a liberal–this country _is_ pretty conservative; that may have changed _some_, with some people genuinely moving left due to the economic crisis, but on the whole I don’t think the American people all just woke up last November as full-throated liberals. Rather, a great many non-batshit-crazy conservatives (like **SenorBeef** ) have, at least for now, abandoned the Republican Party–if asked they would probably self-identify as “independents” and may even have voted for Obama (with various degrees of enthusiasm or nose-holding). The remnant (relatively speaking) of people who self-identify as Republican voters (not just as “conservative”) is thus a really concentrated group of right-wingers; and it’s not just that they are to the right politically in some genteel Edmund Burke (or even Ronald Reagan) kind of way–way too many people in the GOP these days are to the right in a resentful, paranoid, and conspiracy-mongering way that doesn’t just think the Democrats have the wrong policy ideas, but believes the Democrats are a socialistic-Islamofascist-Nazi cabal who are outright evil and bent on destroying the country. I already mentioned the poll results showing that a majority of self-described Republicans (not necessarily “conservatives” in general) either doubt that Obama was born in this country or flat out believe he wasn’t. That’s the kind of paranoid whackiness which has taken hold of the Republican Party in this country. ---
**Author:** ![Peanut\_Gallery](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/838e76/32.png) [@Peanut\_Gallery](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peanut_Gallery)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2009, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-the-more-i-learn-the-more-disgusted-i-become/511687/253 "2009-10-01T00:34:46Z")
> [@purplehorseshoe](#): > > it’s addressed to the people in charge of fixing this mess. The politicians making the laws, the CEOs running the insurance companies … who else? You mean the CEO’s making the laws. I think we should all put our politics aside for a moment to hate some lobbyists and congress-people more generally. It really doesn’t mean anything that it is a D bill or a R bill. Ultimately, the lobbyists/corporations would have bought the politicians from either side of the aisle, and turned the whole process around to serve them _just the same_. Whatever you think is wrong with health care, and however you think it needs to be fixed, this coming bill is not really going to fix it. It is only going to help more money move from the population to the corporations. Just like the last thing they “fixed”. And this is The Pit. We don’t post here to offer creative and constructive solutions. We post here to hate on people and things. ---
**Author:** ![gang\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f07891/32.png) [@gang\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gang_green)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2009, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-the-more-i-learn-the-more-disgusted-i-become/511687/254 "2009-10-01T01:21:22Z")
Okay, just what does “liberal media” mean? Is it media that only reports news advancing the liberal cause? Is it media that slams all so-called conservative news as bad or evil or “un-American”? Is it media that purposefully edits the news to portray the right as bad? Because while I see plenty of media that certainly puts a liberal bias on its reporting, I also see a media giant who purposefully lies, [deceptively edits](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCQ4gAAVW2k&feature=related), makes “[oopsie!](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8T5eDDL1WuM&feature=related)” mistakes that it occasionally apologizes for, and does it with such blatant and contemptuous disdain for anyone who might not agree with their agenda. I see people screaming about how Obama is running roughshod over the Constitution, and yet it was the Bush administration that completely ignored the 4th amendment with the so-called Patriot Act. I don’t even know what to think about the [“loyalty oaths”](http://www.propeller.com/story/2009/08/09/bush-backers-only-policy-riles-voters-at-rnc-rallies-the-boston-globe/) that were required to be signed by people who wanted to attend Bush or Cheney public forums. I try very hard to see things from every side. I try to understand why people are opposing stuff like raising taxes on the wealthiest citizens (what, do you expect to reach that income level in the next year?) and healthcare reform (how can you expect a for-profit enterprise to continue to support someone who is losing them money?). I just can’t get my head around it. It seems to me that there are a lot of people who not only blindly support anything they are told to support by certain sources, they actively resist even looking at anything that might put those beliefs in question. As I said before, I’m probably considered a leftie pinko fascist commie baby murdering satanist atheist. All I know is that I support the public option, and I distrust big pharma and insurance companies. They are more interested in making money than in the health and welfare of citizens. Side note: Obama’s speech today granting $5B in stimulus funding to the National Institutes of Health - guy in McD’s complaining that there’s no lack of jobs in healthcare, why are we wasting money giving it to them? I weep for humanity. ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2009, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-the-more-i-learn-the-more-disgusted-i-become/511687/255 "2009-10-01T01:28:27Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Yes! Yes! Yes! Bring it on, baby! It snowed up the road in Manitouwadge yesterday. Last night I read the season’s first issue of SBC Skier magazine. Today I hiked up the cross country ski trails on the mesa across the valley to get some pics of the lift area ski hills by my place on the mesas on my side of the valley. I want winter, and I want it now! [Muffin stamps his little ski boot shod hoofies and waves his ski pole menacingly] I’ll see your ski pole and raise you a seven-iron. I don’t want winter yet; I want to get in a few more rounds of golf before the snow hits. Of course, if I get bonked in the head by a golf ball while on the course, medical care will be easily available, with no out-of-pocket cost at point of delivery nor quibbles about covered procedures nor follow-up invoices. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2009, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-the-more-i-learn-the-more-disgusted-i-become/511687/256 "2009-10-01T02:45:00Z")
You Bastard! **Sam Stone** is going to have to pay for your golf carelessness through vast tax increases by the bankrupt Alberta government! You’re going to put him in the poor house! And, according to **Sam** , your doctor will not be free to chose whatever treatment he sees fit; no, he will have to follow the socialist medicine ideas of a government board. No leaches for you! ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2009, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-the-more-i-learn-the-more-disgusted-i-become/511687/257 "2009-10-01T02:52:23Z")
There _are_ legitimate issues with Canadian Health care and its delivery of care. I’ve done my best to avoid these American freak out threads so I’ve probably missed **Sam** ’s posts on it but I would doubt very much that your caricature gets to the heart of his arguments. ---
**Author:** ![Randolph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Randolph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Randolph)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2009, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-the-more-i-learn-the-more-disgusted-i-become/511687/258 "2009-10-01T02:57:25Z")
After [yesterday](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11613726&postcount=234) Alan Grayson (D-FL) continues to stir the pot, on [The Situation Room](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTrDF0Gszck&feature=player_embedded) and [again on the floor](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoITVLWpKB8&feature=player_embedded). Maybe a bit overboard with the Neanderthal stuff, but it’s certainly refreshing. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2009, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-the-more-i-learn-the-more-disgusted-i-become/511687/259 "2009-10-01T03:09:31Z")
Bonked on the head with a golf ball? That would be my dad. The first time my topping the ball when teeing off sent it spinning backwards into his forehead behind me. You know that vein in your forehead that pulses when you are about to transmute into Spoons the Litigator? Well I missed his vein that time, and there were no out of pocket costs for the hospital visit. Unfortunately (you knew this was coming), the next time I pegged him in the head (a severe slice while teeing off sent the ball swerving into a tree and then ricocheing behind me), I hit his forehead vein spot on. Boy howdy, did it gush. Fortunately, the propensity for doctors to play golf had the golf course quite close to the hospital, so with one hand pressed hard on my dad’s forehead, and the other on the wheel of the golf cart, we zipped off to the hospital again. And again there were no out of pocket costs. That was the last time I played golf. (Which is just as well, for earlier that summer I pegged a beaver on a fairway, and a couple of days later the nearby beaver dam failed and flooded out the Trans-Canada. Coincidence or revenge? Who knows. Give my rugby any day – it’s a lot safer than golf.) ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2009, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-the-more-i-learn-the-more-disgusted-i-become/511687/260 "2009-10-01T04:30:33Z")
Heh heh - Spoons the Litigator. Is that anything like Conan the Librarian? 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-the-more-i-learn-the-more-disgusted-i-become/511687.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-the-more-i-learn-the-more-disgusted-i-become/511687.md?page=14)