# Healthcare - The More I Learn the More Disgusted I Become **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 26, 2009, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-the-more-i-learn-the-more-disgusted-i-become/511687 "2009-09-26T22:53:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2009, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-the-more-i-learn-the-more-disgusted-i-become/511687/141 "2009-09-28T18:24:07Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > In the same spirit of generosity, I sincerely hope that nobody finds out it was you who sold the brown acid at Woodstock. I’d hate for that to get out… Or the fact that it wasn’t lysergic acid he was selling, but hydrochloric acid. And he’d have gotten away with it, too, if it wasn’t for those damn hippies ! ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2009, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-the-more-i-learn-the-more-disgusted-i-become/511687/142 "2009-09-28T18:59:13Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Not that I have any problem at all with your posting this (which I haven’t :)), but I will point out that despite the many occasions when I’ve seen other posters do this with nary a word from the mods, on the one occasion when I did do the same, it was deemed that I was altering quotes (depite the fact that jokingly altering the quote is the intent in the first place) and I got reprimanded for it. Here’s hoping the same won’t occur with you. > > (Plus you left out an “I” either just before or just after “[del]Guinastasia[/del]”.) 😉 > > P.S. - I don’t recall the forum in which I made the alteration or the mod that warned me for it, so it should not be assumed that it was one of the Pit moderators who did so as it may or may not have been one of them. Thanks for taking it in the light-hearted way I intended it, **SA**. FWIW, I coded the deletions so as to cross out “Guinistas”, leave the “i”, and cross out the final “a”. And Mods, could we get a ruling? I’m presuming that the rule on altering quotes is to prevent misrepresentation or purposeful (as opposed to ‘chaffing’ joking) insult, and saying that you’re doing it intentionally for humor’s sake, calling attention to the change, is not what’s prohibited – as I did, and as **SA** says he did, and was chastized in one way or another for doing. I suspect it’s one of those “no bright line” situations, where an obvious joke is permissible, a blatant insulting change is warnable, and there’s a gray area in between – but let’s see what you all think. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2009, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-the-more-i-learn-the-more-disgusted-i-become/511687/143 "2009-09-28T19:33:03Z")
AFAIK (and I’ll happily accept correction from a mod), not putting your “edit” in quote tags leaves you in the clear. The fact that your post includes the original sentence _within_ quote tags bolsters your security (again, AFAIK). ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2009, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-the-more-i-learn-the-more-disgusted-i-become/511687/144 "2009-09-28T19:33:41Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Or the fact that it wasn’t lysergic acid he was selling, but hydrochloric acid. And he’d have gotten away with it, too, if it wasn’t for those damn hippies ! We totally destroyed Western Civilization, such as it was. And you’d think somebody would thank us, but _noooooo_! ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2009, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-the-more-i-learn-the-more-disgusted-i-become/511687/145 "2009-09-28T19:56:34Z")
This just in, US ranks last out of 16 in health care. [http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090928/hl\_nm/us\_canada\_health](http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090928/hl_nm/us_canada_health) Can someone explain to me how having public and private options in higher education seems to be working fine, but in health care would cause America to implode? Just asking ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2009, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-the-more-i-learn-the-more-disgusted-i-become/511687/146 "2009-09-28T20:02:22Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > The statistics and comments by people here cannot, IMO, be relied upon because they are: a) a small sample of the Canadian population; b) strongly biased toward a government health care system in the first place; c) utterly ignoring of the negative aspects of the Canadian system that I have brought up and posted cites for; d) I’ve seen enough of how our own government operates to have absolutely no confidence in it to run anything as massive and complex and important as UHC well. But Statistics are by their very nature based on a sample. Statistics are not strongly biased towards a particular system; they will tell you how long the actual wait times are for various procedures ON AVERAGE. See **Spoons** post for a link to actual median times for wait lists for procedures. We don’t have to rely on anecdotes from people. We can see the actual numbers, which are not baised towards any particular point of view; they are what they are. As **Spoons** points out, we don’t ignore negative aspects of the Canadian system - rather we acknowledge that there are problems with wait times for certain procedures, and then try to deal with the problems. There is also a problem getting primary care doctors to go to remote northern communities. There! I’ve acknowledged a problem! But is does not mean that I think our system should be thrown out; rather it should be continually improved. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2009, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-the-more-i-learn-the-more-disgusted-i-become/511687/147 "2009-09-28T20:14:45Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > The statistics and comments by people here cannot, IMO, be relied upon because they are: a) a small sample of the Canadian population; b) strongly biased toward a government health care system in the first place; c) utterly ignoring of the negative aspects of the Canadian system that I have brought up and posted cites for; d) I’ve seen enough of how our own government operates to have absolutely no confidence in it to run anything as massive and complex and important as UHC well. I’m still trying to wrap my head around what you seem to be saying here. Let me see if I have it right: - You don’t like the statistics that people are providing to you in the form of cites of median waiting times for procedures in various provinces. - One reason you don’t like them is that the statistics are based on a small sample size. a) so what, this is what the science of statistics DOES, and b) a wait list median is based on how long EVERYONE waited. - Another reason you don’t like the statistics is that they are biased in favour of the existing system. a) I’m not sure how a median wait time can be biased. It is a number. A number that can be tracked over time to see if it gets better or worse. - A third reason you don’t like the statistics is that they ignore the negative aspects that you’ve posted, those being a dimly remembered anecdote and a selected quote from a doctor with the part at the end clipped wherein he says we should certainly keep the current system. - A fourth reason you don’t like the statistics about wait lists in Canada is that you have no faith in your own government to provide complex services. I must admit, I just don’t get this one. ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2009, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-the-more-i-learn-the-more-disgusted-i-become/511687/148 "2009-09-28T20:31:46Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > - A fourth reason you don’t like the statistics about wait lists in Canada is that you have no faith in your own government to provide complex services. I must admit, I just don’t get this one. I never get that one, either. Especially since a lot of the people I hear spouting it have no problem with the U.S. military. ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2009, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-the-more-i-learn-the-more-disgusted-i-become/511687/149 "2009-09-28T21:28:19Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > - One reason you don’t like them is that the statistics are based on a small sample size. a) so what, this is what the science of statistics DOES, and b) a wait list median is based on how long EVERYONE waited. In fairness, I’d suggest that the sample sizes may seem small to **Starving Artist** because we in Canada have approximately one-tenth of the population of the US. Our whole national population is about the same as that of California. So, with our provincially-based systems reporting their respective populations’ figures, our numbers must necessarily be smaller. Again, though, it is important to remember that while smaller, they are probably large enough to be statistically significant. Provincial health plans cover anywhere from 150,000 to 8,000,000 people (what is Ontario’s population now?), each of which I’d guess provides a large enough sample to ensure accurate figures as regards things like median wait times. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2009, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-the-more-i-learn-the-more-disgusted-i-become/511687/150 "2009-09-28T21:39:58Z")
> [@Spoons](#): > > Provincial health plans cover anywhere from 150,000 to 8,000,000 people (what is Ontario’s population now?), each of which I’d guess provides a large enough sample to ensure accurate figures as regards things like median wait times. The thing with median wait time statistics is though… It takes into account EVERYONE on the wait list, not a sample. If you take the wait times of every single patient for a procedure, put them in an ordered list, and then take the most common wait time, that is the median. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2009, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-the-more-i-learn-the-more-disgusted-i-become/511687/151 "2009-09-28T21:53:18Z")
I guess some Americans are pissed about having to pay for Canadian’s health care. (I wonder if that will start an internet meme that gets picked up by Fox?) ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2009, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-the-more-i-learn-the-more-disgusted-i-become/511687/152 "2009-09-28T22:03:59Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > The thing with median wait time statistics is though… It takes into account EVERYONE on the wait list, not a sample. If you take the wait times of every single patient for a procedure, put them in an ordered list, and then take the most common wait time, that is the median. Um, not quite. That (the most common wait time) is the _mode_. The median is the number above and below which equal parts (approximately half each) of the (statistical) ‘population’ lies. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2009, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-the-more-i-learn-the-more-disgusted-i-become/511687/153 "2009-09-28T22:06:50Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > I guess some Americans are pissed about having to pay for Canadian’s health care. > > (I wonder if that will start an internet meme that gets picked up by Fox?) Well, I, for one, am pissed as hell about them swarming over the border into Minnesota for our health care! What a boorish, loud, and obstreperous bunch! ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2009, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-the-more-i-learn-the-more-disgusted-i-become/511687/154 "2009-09-28T22:15:26Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > Um, not quite. That (the most common wait time) is the _mode_. The median is the number above and below which equal parts (approximately half each) of the (statistical) ‘population’ lies. Agghhhh! Of course you are right. :smack: Anyway, **Starving Artist** can’t complain about small sample sizes. The sample is the entire population on the wait list. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2009, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-the-more-i-learn-the-more-disgusted-i-become/511687/155 "2009-09-29T01:55:29Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > I guess some Americans are pissed about having to pay for Canadian’s health care. > > (I wonder if that will start an internet meme that gets picked up by Fox?) Wouldn’t that be awesome? Do you think we could get their insurance companies to go for it? Maybe if we lumped it all together, chopped it up into impossible to trace stocks and bonds and rated it as Grade A investments… ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2009, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-the-more-i-learn-the-more-disgusted-i-become/511687/156 "2009-09-29T02:04:18Z")
I’m not sure what the fuss is about anymore. It’s long past the time where any significant reforms could have been made to the US system, isn’t it? There’s no momentum for universal health care, or for government administration as opposed to insurer administration, so I think the whole debtate is purely theoretical now. The only thing I can see possibly coming is a public funded insurance option for lower income households, nothing more. Am I wrong? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2009, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-the-more-i-learn-the-more-disgusted-i-become/511687/157 "2009-09-29T02:08:55Z")
> [@Spoons](#): > > No, I think if you ask enough Canadians, they’ll tell you about the horror stories and the negative aspects. Granny had to wait weeks for a hip replacement, Little Johnny had to wait six hours in the ER for an x-ray, Mrs. Smith cannot find another GP after hers retired. These things happen, and we cannot deny that they do. What we can do is to bring them out in the open and work to improve them; rather than hide problems behind corporate policies designed to provide shareholders with a good ROI. I think it is similarly telling that many of the Canadians posting here and in other threads allow how our system can be improved. I’m sure we differ in the details of how to improve the systems, perhaps strongly, but we live in a free country; we’re allowed to. > > So maybe it’s not perfect, but it has its advantages: we’re not tied into jobs because that’s where we might get health insurance that (a) can be denied based on pre-existing conditions; (b) can have claims denied for any or no reason at all; and (c) carries with it a rack of deductibles and co-pays and premium payments ( **Icerigger** , is that new premium really approximately $6000 per year?). If we’re biased towards a UHC, it’s because having experienced one, we’ve never gone without because we’ve lost a job. Nor have we been afraid to change jobs because the next job’s plan might not cover us, or be inferior to the plan we have now, or might not even exist. Obviously, we’ve never had to mortgage the house or sell our car to pay for care. It’s a good feeling. > > Have a good one! I have a Canadian friend who had a heart transplant. He did wait a while. It is a big procedure. They tried everything they could find a way to avoid it. They took some time before they finally did it. He has done quite well in the 5 years since he got it. He is not broke. He did not lose his home. He did not have to come up with a bunch of money. He did not get denied because it is expensive and he is not important enough to deserve that kind of care. ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2009, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-the-more-i-learn-the-more-disgusted-i-become/511687/158 "2009-09-29T02:33:30Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > I have a Canadian friend who had a heart transplant. He did wait a while. It is a big procedure. They tried everything they could find a way to avoid it. They took some time before they finally did it. He has done quite well in the 5 years since he got it. He is not broke. He did not lose his home. He did not have to come up with a bunch of money. He did not get denied because it is expensive and he is not important enough to deserve that kind of care. Well, he was covered for that kind of care, and he received that kind of care. No “death panels” (:rolleyes:) decided whether to supply him the care based on age or lifestyle, nor did anybody in government think of denying him the care–that’s not how the system works. You are a resident, you are covered, they cannot quibble. Simple. Why do Americans think it must necessarily be much more difficult than it actually is? ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2009, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-the-more-i-learn-the-more-disgusted-i-become/511687/159 "2009-09-29T02:43:40Z")
Missed the edit window: ETA: Of course, they tried everything _medically available_ to find a way to avoid it–but there would have been no question that, had a heart transplant been the only remaining option, that they would have done it. The question of cost or of your friend’s age/condition wouldnt have entered into the picture. Canadians: Have you ever received notification from your provincial health plan that a covered procedure that your physician ordered would be denied by your provincial plan due to cost or your age/condition? I’d bet your answers would be “no.” ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2009, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-the-more-i-learn-the-more-disgusted-i-become/511687/160 "2009-09-29T02:56:10Z")
No, never happened to me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-the-more-i-learn-the-more-disgusted-i-become/511687.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/healthcare-the-more-i-learn-the-more-disgusted-i-become/511687.md?page=9)