# Heart Disease - Has Science been wrong or is this WOO? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 11, 2013, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heart-disease-has-science-been-wrong-or-is-this-woo/652632 "2013-03-11T14:43:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2013, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heart-disease-has-science-been-wrong-or-is-this-woo/652632/21 "2013-03-11T19:48:38Z")
The chlamydia hypothesis, far from being “throttled” by the Evil Mainstream Doctors, has been the subject of [considerable study](http://www.uptodate.com/contents/chlamydophila-chlamydia-pneumoniae-infection-as-a-potential-etiologic-factor-in-atherosclerosis). While there is some evidence suggesting Chlamydia pneumoniae may be a factor in coronary artery disease, treatment with antibiotics has not shown any consistent effect. As for **dataguy** ’s “research” - it would be more meaningful if it was actual research published in a peer-reviewed journal, not an opinion piece with appeals to conspiracy theorists like: _“The information available to the general public is increasingly controlled by commercial interests. Information that may reflect negatively on their business or foster competition is actively suppressed. This is the information that becomes missing. These are the missing facts we refer to.”_ Totally bogus. There is a great deal of competition between researchers and clinicians, and startling new provable hypotheses potentially can yield great honors (and financial compensation) for scientists. The oft-cited example of the discovery of Helicobacter pylori’s links to peptic ulcer disease and cancer (which the woo-crowd claims was suppressed or ignored), actually was followed up by numerous researchers within a brief time after initial research was published and accepted widely once proven and replicated by others. > [@dataguy](#): > > That’s why I made the effort to seek out some of the quieter voices. You should try it sometime. Ah, those “brave mavericks” who defy the establishment, and who frequently are quoted by alties. I prefer the “quiet voices” who are trained in the specific areas of which they profess knowledge, who perform original research, take part in quality clinical studies, publish in peer-reviewed journals so their work can be adequately reviewed, and who preferably have not been sanctioned for misconduct by regulators and professional associations. ---
**Author:** ![dataguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/eada6e/32.png) [@dataguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dataguy)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2013, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heart-disease-has-science-been-wrong-or-is-this-woo/652632/22 "2013-03-11T19:55:32Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > As for **dataguy** ’s “research” - it would be more meaningful if it was actual research published in a peer-reviewed journal, not an opinion piece with appeals to conspiracy theorists like: > > _“The information available to the general public is increasingly controlled by commercial interests. Information that may reflect negatively on their business or foster competition is actively suppressed. This is the information that becomes missing. These are the missing facts we refer to.”_ > > I prefer the “quiet voices” who are trained in the specific areas of which they profess knowledge, who perform original research, take part in quality clinical studies, publish in peer-reviewed journals so their work can be adequately reviewed, and who preferably have not been sanctioned for misconduct by regulators and professional associations. You are welcome to your opinions. I took the trouble to document mine and provide the basis for them. If you find the information helpful, fine. If not, I’ll refund double your money. As for the “I prefer the “quiet voices” who are trained in the specific areas of which they profess knowledge” those are the people cited in the reference section. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2013, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heart-disease-has-science-been-wrong-or-is-this-woo/652632/23 "2013-03-11T21:20:36Z")
So, are woo and WOO the same thing? Because I think the second is what gets yelled at rock concerts. ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2013, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heart-disease-has-science-been-wrong-or-is-this-woo/652632/24 "2013-03-11T21:33:26Z")
The article in question really contains nothing new. It has been known for years that refined grains and sugars (highly processed carbs) are not healthy. One should eat whole grains as much as possible, as whole grains contain fiber that slows down the digestion of glucose. Further, it has been known for years that there should be a proper balance between the omega 6s and omega 3s. I don’t recall the ratio, but IIRC, it is 1:6 in favor the 3s. And, of course, inflammation of blood vessels is the cause of atherosclerosis, as previously pointed out. It’s the way the doctor presents it that sounds like it is news. As pointed out by Moriah, saturated fats increase total cholesterol, but they increase only LDL-cholesterol and not HDL. Polyunsaturated fats increase HDL, and mono- increase both. The liver synthesizes cholesterol from the fats we eat. Very little of our cholesterol is the result of the cholesterol we eat. (Trans fats increase LDL but lower HDL.) ---
**Author:** ![dstarfire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dstarfire/32/5762_2.png) [@dstarfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dstarfire)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2013, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heart-disease-has-science-been-wrong-or-is-this-woo/652632/25 "2013-03-11T21:34:53Z")
Didn’t we just have a thread about what makes cholesterol stick to artery walls a few days/weeks ago? iirc, the general consensus was that turbulent flows and uneven pressures (where different sized blood vessels meet) were the most common causes of plaque buildup (kind like sediment collecting at forks and bends in a river or stream). ---
**Author:** ![Michael63129](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3da27b/32.png) [@Michael63129](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael63129)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2013, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heart-disease-has-science-been-wrong-or-is-this-woo/652632/26 "2013-03-11T21:41:44Z")
> [@moriah](#): > > Since plaque was full of cholesterol, doctors put patients on strict cholesterol intake diets. Problem with that is that the human body also makes its own cholesterol as well as get it from ingestion. So, you can cut all all dairy and red meat and still have high cholesterol. And so then it was discovered that there was good cholesterol and bad cholesterol and that whole thing. This made people question whether doctors knew what they were talking about and contributed to the woo meme that bad things really are good for you. Since you mention red meat and dairy, a recent study (actually a compilation of many studies) found that [red meat isn’t bad at all unless it is processed](http://www.webmd.com/heart-disease/news/20100517/processed-meat-linked-to-heart-disease-risks) (smoked, cured, nitrites added); then it contributes to a whopping 42% increase in heart disease risk, which is pretty major, causing over a hundred thousand deaths a year in the U.S. alone (based on the risk increase and the number of CVD deaths). Perhaps this is also why there is a common perception that red meat is bad - since past studies likely didn’t differentiate between processed and unprocessed meat (FWIW, processed non-red meat is also bad). Similarly, [this study](http://www.jacn.org/content/27/6/723S.abstract) (again a compilation of numerous studies, pointing this out because if many studies show the same thing they are likely to be right) found that people who consume a lot of dairy (which has a LOT of saturated fat in it, about 2/3 of the total fat, compared to 1/3 for meat) have a significantly lower risk of heart disease. Interestingly enough, for myocardial infarction (i.e. heart attack), dairy fat by itself had the [biggest reduction in risk](http://www.jacn.org/content/27/6/723S/T2.expansion.html) (relative risk 0.67; of course, the range goes up to 1.83, but perhaps because not all factors were ruled out; e.g. ice cream isn’t the same as milk). Note, dairy fat in particular does raise LDL cholesterol, but LDL cholesterol is more complex than a simple number since there are different kinds of LDL (HDL too, and yes, not all HDL is good either), as mentioned in [this article](http://www.minnpost.com/second-opinion/2010/02/saturated-fat-and-ldl-cholesterol-messages-may-well-be-counterproductive) (which says that refined carbs are what raises the “real” bad cholesterol). ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2013, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heart-disease-has-science-been-wrong-or-is-this-woo/652632/27 "2013-03-11T21:46:47Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > I love the sentence _“When you spike your blood sugar level several times a day, every day, it is **exactly like** taking sandpaper to the inside of your delicate blood vessels.”_ [emphasis added] > > Finally I understand why eating oreos gives me massive internal bleeding and why I can feel granules of sand in my veins. > I really should cut down. Dr. [del]Woo[/del] Lundell seems really hung up on this concept of raw, irritated coronary arteries just oozing with inflammation because you ate the Wrong Foods. Problem is, despite the “thousands upon thousands” of coronaries he has seen, he’s dead wrong. I have seen loads of coronary arteries in the course of my (pathology) practice, and the ones affected by atherosclerosis do not look like Dr. Lundell describes. The first signs of lipid deposition are yellowish “fatty streaks” on the artery’s lumenal surface. In people with progressive atherosclerosis, similar lipid material builds up in the wall of the artery and may eventually calcify to produce a gritty gray-tan material, while the lumen of the artery is narrowed, reducing blood flow to the heart, which can eventually cause myocardial infarction and heart failure. The affected coronary arteries, though, do not look inflamed to the naked eye, nor do they typically show significant inflammation microscopically. This does not mean that inflammatory events didn’t cause the fatty deposition, but it does indicate that Dr. Lundell’s dramatic descriptions are hooey and should be a further indicator that he doesn’t know what he’s talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Michael63129](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3da27b/32.png) [@Michael63129](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael63129)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2013, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heart-disease-has-science-been-wrong-or-is-this-woo/652632/28 "2013-03-11T21:53:49Z")
> [@barbitu8](#): > > As pointed out by Moriah, saturated fats increase total cholesterol, but they increase only LDL-cholesterol and not HDL. Polyunsaturated fats increase HDL, and mono- increase both. The liver synthesizes cholesterol from the fats we eat. Very little of our cholesterol is the result of the cholesterol we eat. (Trans fats increase LDL but lower HDL.) Saturated fats actually raise HDL cholesterol as well; in fact, saturated fat raises HDL [more than any other fat](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1386252), at least when they replace carbs: > [@](#): > > All fatty acids elevated HDL cholesterol when substituted for carbohydrates, but the effect diminished with increasing unsaturation of the fatty acids. Of particular interest (and yes, they sell lauric acid supplements): > [@](#): > > Lauric acid (systematically: dodecanoic acid), the saturated fatty acid… > > …Lauric acid has been found to increase total cholesterol the most of all fatty acids. But most of the increase is attributable to an increase in high-density lipoprotein (HDL) “good” cholesterol. As a result, lauric acid has “a more favorable effect on total:HDL cholesterol than any other fatty acid, either saturated or unsaturated”;[9] a lower total/HDL cholesterol ratio suggests a decrease in atherosclerotic risk. Incidentally, [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palm_oil#Nutrition) says that palm oil is bad not because of the saturated fat, but because it is often oxidized, and oxidized fats are known to cause inflammation and even be carcinogenic (FWIW, more unsaturated oils are even more likely to oxidize, especially when used in frying). ---
**Author:** ![Surreal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eada6e/32.png) [@Surreal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Surreal)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2013, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heart-disease-has-science-been-wrong-or-is-this-woo/652632/29 "2013-03-11T22:13:08Z")
> [@barbitu8](#): > > As pointed out by Moriah, saturated fats increase total cholesterol, but they increase only LDL-cholesterol and not HDL. Complete nonsense. Get your facts straight. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2013, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heart-disease-has-science-been-wrong-or-is-this-woo/652632/30 "2013-03-11T22:50:42Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > What about the Egyptian mummies? Recent research finds that Egyptians of 4500 years ago suffered from heart disease-long before fast foods. [side-track] AFAIK, it was only the royalty and other very wealthy, who were privileged to be mummified. I doubt that many of the “common people” were so well-treated. And the rich and royals probably had a very different – and probably unhealthier – diet than the common people. [/side-track] ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2013, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heart-disease-has-science-been-wrong-or-is-this-woo/652632/31 "2013-03-12T00:45:06Z")
> [@dstarfire](#): > > Didn’t we just have a thread about what makes cholesterol stick to artery walls a few days/weeks ago? > > iirc, the general consensus was that turbulent flows and uneven pressures (where different sized blood vessels meet) were the most common causes of plaque buildup (kind like sediment collecting at forks and bends in a river or stream). [Sort of.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=16037551) [My contribution.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=16037491&postcount=11) > [@](#): > > Stenosis, and in particular an acute cardiac events, are not exclusively the result of plaque size but more so of plaque rupture. There are more vulnerable plaques that rupture more easily than others, with thin fibrous caps and softer cores. Mechanical forces (such as the shear forces of the beating heart) appear to play a major role in promoting both vulnerable plaque formation and rupture: > > Quote: > The repetitive deformations caused by the cardiac cycle may play an important role in lesion stability. … the effect of increasing pulse pressure in plaque rupture in the same way that bending a paper clip repetitively eventually breaks it. In addition, weakening of tissue by compression of the fibrous cap such as by collapse of the artery due to the pressure gradient caused by the stenosis [24]or by arterial spasm remains a possible mechanism … > > That article also goes on to discuss how mechanical stress may contribute to the fibrous cap being built of weaker material. > > Thus plaques may form all over but some locations may be more prone to form vulnerable plaques that are prone to rupture causing a consequent clotting (thrombotic) event that blocks flow. It does not help it those same locations are critical spots with limited alternate routes of blood supply. The nature of the beating heart (mechanical stresses and high pressure differentials) may promote the formation of those vulnerable plaques. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2013, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heart-disease-has-science-been-wrong-or-is-this-woo/652632/32 "2013-03-12T14:28:06Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > [side-track] > > AFAIK, it was only the royalty and other very wealthy, who were privileged to be mummified. I doubt that many of the “common people” were so well-treated. And the rich and royals probably had a very different – and probably unhealthier – diet than the common people. > > [/side-track] Not necessarily [Heart disease present in ancient mummies - BBC News](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-21739193) > [@](#): > > “Furthermore, the mummies we studied from outside Egypt were produced naturally as a result of local climate conditions, meaning that it’s reasonable to assume that these mummies represent a reasonable cross-section of the population, rather than the specially selected elite group of people who were selected for mummification in ancient Egypt.” ---
**Author:** ![The\_Man\_In\_Black](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@The\_Man\_In\_Black](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Man_In_Black)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2013, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heart-disease-has-science-been-wrong-or-is-this-woo/652632/33 "2013-03-12T16:22:39Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > What about the Egyptian mummies? Recent research finds that Egyptians of 4500 years ago suffered from heart disease-long before fast foods. > **[Redirect Notice](https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http:%2F%2Fweknowmemes.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2011%2F09%2Fancient-aliens-it-was-aliens.jpg&imgrefurl=http:%2F%2Fweknowmemes.com%2F2011%2F09%2Fancient-aliens-meme%2F&h=403&w=461&sz=40&tbnid=HREDKrPDlpI6aM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=103&prev=%2Fsearch%3Fq%3Dcrazy%2Bancient%2Baliens%2Bguy%26tbm%3Disch%26tbo%3Du&zoom=1&q=crazy%2Bancient%2Baliens%2Bguy&usg=__n34JpcA785PJ4UqdY8S3ytCYwhM=&docid=On8_5y4wcCJaiM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=1VU_Udu-H8jD0QHupYGICw&sqi=2&ved=0CDUQ9QEwAg&dur=340)** [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heart-disease-has-science-been-wrong-or-is-this-woo/652632.md?page=1)