# Hearts & Minds update: Shooting wounded prisoners in a mosque. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 16, 2004, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hearts-minds-update-shooting-wounded-prisoners-in-a-mosque/274974 "2004-11-16T01:31:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hearts-minds-update-shooting-wounded-prisoners-in-a-mosque/274974/181 "2004-11-17T14:53:25Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > 😕 Which interpretation didn’t make sense to you? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hearts-minds-update-shooting-wounded-prisoners-in-a-mosque/274974/182 "2004-11-17T14:55:29Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > Which interpretation didn’t make sense to you? 🙂 I just didn’t know what that reply meant. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hearts-minds-update-shooting-wounded-prisoners-in-a-mosque/274974/183 "2004-11-17T15:09:32Z")
More fun. > **[من اقرأ إلى واسجد واقترب - اسلام اون لاين](https://islamonline.net/?utm_source=islamonline.org&utm_medium=redirect&utm_campaign=godaddy_redirect)** > > أول موقع عربي على الإنترنت يهتم بنشر الثقافة الإسلامية والتعريف بمبادىء الدين الحنيف عبر معالجة عالم الأفكار والاهتمام بالعلوم وإصدارات الكتب. > [@](#): > > BAGHDAD, November 17 ([IslamOnline.net](http://IslamOnline.net) & News Agencies) – The US pool reporter, who broke to the world the killing of a wounded, unarmed Iraqi prisoner by a marine, further revealed that more prisoners were shot dead though they did not appear threatening in any way. > > NBC correspondent Kevin Sites was quoted by the Associated Press Wednesday, November 17, as saying that US Marines killed three more unarmed and wounded Iraqi prisoners in a Fallujah mosque Saturday, November 12. > > He added the wounded had been left in the mosque for others to pick up and move to the rear for treatment. No reason was given why that had not happened. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hearts-minds-update-shooting-wounded-prisoners-in-a-mosque/274974/184 "2004-11-17T15:21:15Z")
> [@](#): > > He added the wounded had been left in the mosque for others to pick up and move to the rear for treatment. No reason was given why that had not happened. yes, as I noted in my first post to the thread - that’s where the problem started. Remember that female soldier who was wounded in the beginning of the war? She was taken to a hospital and treated. her experience wasn’t all rosy and sunshine of course, but _she wasn’t left sitting in her blood on the road and shot the next day by the next round of troops_ ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hearts-minds-update-shooting-wounded-prisoners-in-a-mosque/274974/185 "2004-11-17T16:18:33Z")
> [@Roseworm](#): > > About half an hour ago, Bill O’Reilly at FOX stated that (in his opinion) the Marine is innocent and should be exonerated - even congratulated. > > That is a pretty bold statement. > > I like it. Why am I not surprised? ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hearts-minds-update-shooting-wounded-prisoners-in-a-mosque/274974/186 "2004-11-17T16:28:17Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > I just didn’t know what that reply meant. I think he meant that not only the terrorists will hate the USA for this, but also the sane, decent, etc…people. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hearts-minds-update-shooting-wounded-prisoners-in-a-mosque/274974/187 "2004-11-17T16:42:30Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > I think he meant that not only the terrorists will hate the USA for this, but also the sane, decent, etc…people. Yes, that makes sense, thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Roseworm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/df788c/32.png) [@Roseworm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roseworm)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hearts-minds-update-shooting-wounded-prisoners-in-a-mosque/274974/188 "2004-11-17T17:18:57Z")
It is probably all moot anyway. Al-Jazeera and the international media will run with the story, and our own domestic Media will try to make a major issue out of it. But at the end of the day I cannot see the American public getting particularly upset by it. As for the Iraqi public… [http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=564&ncid=564&e2&u=/nm/20041117/ts\_nm/iraq\_hassan\_reaction\_dc](http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=564&ncid=564&e2&u=/nm/20041117/ts_nm/iraq_hassan_reaction_dc) Let us face simple reality: The murder of Margaret Hassan is a _much_ bigger story. I must say, the terrorists (from their own point of view) have a breathtaking sense of bad timing. But Hassan’s death will not have been in vain if it inspires the Iraqis to take control of their own destiny. Sooner or later, they must realize: “If we can get our shit together, get rid of our terrorists and prove to the world that we can run a more or less stable government, then the Americans will _go away_.” ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hearts-minds-update-shooting-wounded-prisoners-in-a-mosque/274974/189 "2004-11-17T17:30:41Z")
> [@Machetero](#): > > And the neat thing in Iraq is that these soldiers have now probably made an enemy of his entire extended family, some member(s) of which will kill an American soldier or collaborator or at least give aid and comfort to those that do. That’s a fairly simple concept for anyone to grasp, right? Well, good luck trying to explain it to a large part of your countrymates. For myself and hundreds of others – just on these boards – haven’t been able to. In fact, this whole insanity is getting into ‘Good Germans’ territory: > [@Roseworm](#): > > About half an hour ago, Bill O’Reilly at FOX stated that (in his opinion) the Marine is innocent and should be exonerated - even congratulated. > > That is a pretty bold statement. > > I like it. QED. Idiots, that in their supreme hubris, not only lack for any semblance of empathy, but refuse to see the blindingly obvious: this particular invasion is a complete failure, that no matter how many Fallujas you ‘win’, the war’s long been lost. It’s only a matter of time and bodybags. Guess who has all the time in the world in order to provide the latter? Iraq, Algeria, Vietnam…Iraq yet again. Books. History. Libraries. Naw, forget that! Turn on the stupid tube and watch the propagan…er, news. Yep, that’s the ticket. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hearts-minds-update-shooting-wounded-prisoners-in-a-mosque/274974/190 "2004-11-17T18:27:17Z")
> [@Roseworm](#): > > But Hassan’s death will not have been in vain if it inspires the Iraqis to take control of their own destiny. Sooner or later, they must realize: “If we can get our shit together, get rid of our terrorists and prove to the world that we can run a more or less stable government, then the Americans will _go away_.” You obviously lack understanding of what’s going on over there. _The exact instant_ we pull out (about 10 years from now) there will be a bloody civil war. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hearts-minds-update-shooting-wounded-prisoners-in-a-mosque/274974/191 "2004-11-17T18:30:04Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > That’s a fairly simple concept for anyone to grasp, right? Well, good luck trying to explain it to a large part of your countrymates. For myself and hundreds of others – just on these boards – haven’t been able to. Yeah people don’t get this do they? It’s about the easiest concept in the world. ---
**Author:** ![Roseworm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/df788c/32.png) [@Roseworm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roseworm)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hearts-minds-update-shooting-wounded-prisoners-in-a-mosque/274974/192 "2004-11-17T19:55:52Z")
To **Diogenes the Cynic** , **World Eater** , **smartini** , **clairobscur** , **RedFury** and the rest of the _corps de douches_: Judging by your response to my remarks about Mr. O’Reilly’s opinion, it is fair to say that cheeky humor is completely wasted on you apoplectic bozos. I am aware that Mr. O’Reilly is not a well-loved name on this board, and yet he made a valid point. It reminded me of my father’s reaction to the My Lai Massacre and Lt. William Calley: “They should either hang him or let him go.” In the case of the Marine involved in the mosque killing, they should either punish him severely or exonerate him. Anything in between is an unsatisfactory compromise. But that is probably what we will get because that is the way the world works. The politicians would like to punish him in order to maintain the “high moral ground” and the generals would like to exonerate him because they do not want their men to start second-guessing their own reactions in kill-or-be-killed situations. As far as “winning the hearts and minds” of the Iraqi people goes (the original gist of the OP) here is an interesting anecdote: Several months ago, a US base in Iraq came under nighttime mortar attack. The Yanks responded with some heavy artillery which chewed up a lot of civilian property. Fortunately, no civilians were killed. In the morning a US officer went out to assess the damage. He was met by a bunch of civilians with a lawyer who had _already_ drawn up claims for damages. After a short powwow the officer agreed to settle for $70,000 (probably an inflated figure, if I understand human nature at all). In the end, everyone smiled and shook hands and the Iraqis opined: “You Americans are okay.” (I do not have a cite for this, for which I apologize) My point is, the authorities have already budgeted 75-100 million dollars to rebuild Fallujah. You can buy a lot of hearts and minds with that kind of money. It all comes down to the bottom line, kids. Say what you like about America…We are good at blowing things up, but we are even better at rebuilding them. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hearts-minds-update-shooting-wounded-prisoners-in-a-mosque/274974/193 "2004-11-17T20:01:51Z")
> [@Roseworm](#): > > My point is, the authorities have already budgeted 75-100 million dollars to rebuild Fallujah. You can buy a lot of hearts and minds with that kind of money. It all comes down to the bottom line, kids. If you were to invade my country and kill one of my relatives and then offer me money, you know what I’d do? I’d smile, sign the contract, and take the money. And then I would use it to buy more ammunition to kill your soldiers. I’ll bet a LOT of Iraqis will try this simple yet elegant strategy. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hearts-minds-update-shooting-wounded-prisoners-in-a-mosque/274974/194 "2004-11-17T20:03:43Z")
The Iraqi people hate us, dude, Face reality. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hearts-minds-update-shooting-wounded-prisoners-in-a-mosque/274974/195 "2004-11-17T20:10:55Z")
> [@Roseworm](#): > > \*\*Say what you like about America…We are good at blowing things up, but we are even better at rebuilding them. \*\* Which is at the very heart of the neocon’s permanent war economy. Good for Halliburton’s stockholder’s. Bad for those caught under the rubble. As for saying what I want about America, how’s this? Your current Gov are lying, thieving and murdering bastards, and those of you that keep lockstepping along with them, are accessories to mass murder. In your case, it comes as no surprise that a twat would be all for TWAT. There’s some “cheeky humor” for you. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hearts-minds-update-shooting-wounded-prisoners-in-a-mosque/274974/196 "2004-11-17T20:12:31Z")
How do you “rebuild” incinerated children? ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hearts-minds-update-shooting-wounded-prisoners-in-a-mosque/274974/197 "2004-11-17T20:18:22Z")
> [@Roseworm](#): > > Say what you like about America…We are good at blowing things up, but we are even better at rebuilding them. That’s another thing that bothers me. Blowing shit up willy nilly that WE pay for later. They’re acting like the money is unlimited or something. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hearts-minds-update-shooting-wounded-prisoners-in-a-mosque/274974/198 "2004-11-17T21:45:51Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > That’s another thing that bothers me. Blowing shit up willy nilly that WE pay for later. They’re acting like the money is unlimited or something. You don’t see Bush, Cheney and the other chickenhawks writing checks out of their personal accounts, do you? They’ll end up with lots of money. So why should they care? ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hearts-minds-update-shooting-wounded-prisoners-in-a-mosque/274974/199 "2004-11-18T00:30:11Z")
Tongue only partly in cheek: Would all of this have turned out better if we’d just dumped ten billion dollar bills on Fallujah? ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hearts-minds-update-shooting-wounded-prisoners-in-a-mosque/274974/200 "2004-11-18T00:53:42Z")
Heck, it’d have turned out even better if we had just paid Saddam $1 billion for exclusive rights to drill Iraq’s oil… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hearts-minds-update-shooting-wounded-prisoners-in-a-mosque/274974.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hearts-minds-update-shooting-wounded-prisoners-in-a-mosque/274974.md?page=11)