# Hearts & Minds update: Shooting wounded prisoners in a mosque. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 16, 2004, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hearts-minds-update-shooting-wounded-prisoners-in-a-mosque/274974 "2004-11-16T01:31:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hearts-minds-update-shooting-wounded-prisoners-in-a-mosque/274974/101 "2004-11-16T19:18:55Z")
I wonder what the Bush-votin’ apologists will say when – somewhere in the near future – an “enemy combatant” does something similarly barbaric against an American and then justifies it by saying “You did it, so we can, too.” ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hearts-minds-update-shooting-wounded-prisoners-in-a-mosque/274974/102 "2004-11-16T19:24:02Z")
Easy. There \*are \* no “enemy combatants”, they’re \*all \* terrorists who hate freedom etc. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hearts-minds-update-shooting-wounded-prisoners-in-a-mosque/274974/103 "2004-11-16T19:25:25Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I agree about the moral equivalency. I just don’t think saying “kill them” is an effective way to deal with them. They have to be educated. Eh, “kill them” is mere hyperbole; I’d settle for a thorough, backhanded bitchslap for each and every one of them. > [@](#): > > (And hopefully Slate is wrong about what it called the "unteachable ignorance of the red states’) I wouldn’t hold my breath. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hearts-minds-update-shooting-wounded-prisoners-in-a-mosque/274974/104 "2004-11-16T19:26:41Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > No, it’s binding on non-signatories as well. Back with a cite in a minute. [Cite](http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Third%20Geneva%20Convention) > [@](#): > > In the case of a conflict between a signatory and a non-signatory the signatory shall remain bound until such time as the non-signatory no longer acts under the strictures of the convention. ---
**Author:** ![BubbaDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bubbadog/32/333_2.png) [@BubbaDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BubbaDog)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hearts-minds-update-shooting-wounded-prisoners-in-a-mosque/274974/105 "2004-11-16T19:33:31Z")
Some random thoughts that occured as I read the news, saw the video, and read this discussion. The insurgents were not securred when the men intered the room. Under the circumstances it is very doubtful that they were dangerous. Boobby traps have a way of showing up in situations just like that one. If my son were the shell shocked, worn out, tired soldier who pulled the trigger I’d tell him “You fucked up. But you’re still alive. You’re first resposibility is to return home to your family. Your second responsibility is to complete your missions. Your third responsibility is to respect the rules of combat. You failed your third responsibility.” If my son were the person who delivered the video to the public I would say, " You fucked up! You’re first responsibility is to return home to your family. You’re second responsibility is to not endager the lives of the troops who protect you. You’re actions have exposed and sensationalized an ugly side of the war at the expense of the lives of our troops. My neighbors will lose sons and husbands because you have given their enemies power. Their enemies will feed on the actions of a confused, wounded and worn-out foot soldier and portray his mistake as if it were our troops’ policy. That soldier made his mistake in the confusion of combat. You made your mistake after you had ample time to consider the consequences. I hope you enjoy your 15 minutes because you will have to live for ever with the realizationof what your actions have done." ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hearts-minds-update-shooting-wounded-prisoners-in-a-mosque/274974/106 "2004-11-16T19:36:22Z")
> [@](#): > > In the case of a conflict between a signatory and a non-signatory the signatory shall remain bound until such time as the non-signatory no longer acts under the strictures of the convention. Hasn’t the “non-signatory” already done that? ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hearts-minds-update-shooting-wounded-prisoners-in-a-mosque/274974/107 "2004-11-16T19:43:23Z")
so, **Bubba** is it your position that the _reporter_ is the one who fucked up the most here? by \*\*reporting \*\* what he saw? we should attempt to hide our wrong behavior? **that’s** the solution? just never admit that we’ve done wrong? That always works so well. ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hearts-minds-update-shooting-wounded-prisoners-in-a-mosque/274974/108 "2004-11-16T19:45:15Z")
OK, we have a new tangent of international treaties starting up. If this starts a hijack, let’s open a new thread. What is the legal precedent concerning following the UN rules. Or NATO for that matter? From what I understand, the UN rules are followed by choice. Again, if this gets into a major hijack, I’ll open a GD thread. ---
**Author:** ![smartini](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/22d042/32.png) [@smartini](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smartini)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hearts-minds-update-shooting-wounded-prisoners-in-a-mosque/274974/109 "2004-11-16T19:47:34Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > So, I’m in touch with my inner child. I thought that was supposed to be a GOOD thing. 😉 > Sorry for the yelling. Thanks, no problem. And I’m sorry I yelled back…but you yelled first ! 😛 _Yeah, an inner child is a GOOD thing, esp. in times like these 🙂_ ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hearts-minds-update-shooting-wounded-prisoners-in-a-mosque/274974/110 "2004-11-16T19:48:15Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > **Gobear** , saying “kill all the fundies” doesn’t help anything and you’re too thoughtful and articulate poster to marginalize yourself like that. See, **Gobear**? That’s the problem with having built up a good reputation like yours. If I’m thoughtful and articulate it is dismissed as a fluke. If you are anything but thoughtful and articulate it is an abberation that you get called on. Come over to the dark side of flippancy and incoherence. It’s easier here. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hearts-minds-update-shooting-wounded-prisoners-in-a-mosque/274974/111 "2004-11-16T19:50:40Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > Hasn’t the “non-signatory” already done that? How so? ---
**Author:** ![BubbaDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bubbadog/32/333_2.png) [@BubbaDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BubbaDog)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hearts-minds-update-shooting-wounded-prisoners-in-a-mosque/274974/112 "2004-11-16T19:51:52Z")
> [@wring](#): > > so, **Bubba** is it your position that the _reporter_ is the one who fucked up the most here? by \*\*reporting \*\* what he saw? we should attempt to hide our wrong behavior? **that’s** the solution? just never admit that we’ve done wrong? That always works so well. Yes it is. If you follow around wounded soldiers who have been fighting house-to-house for days with little or no sleep you’re bound to pick up one or two of these gems. Maybe getcherself a pulitzer if its good enough. This stuff happens all the time. I do not condone it but I do recognize that, since the time we quit lining up in two lines and shooting at each other from opposite sides of a field war got a lot nastier. The soldier was wrong. He mad a mistake which cost the life of an enemy combatant. The reporter however, just shot the insurgents’ next recruiting video. You may commence your dogpile attack on me now. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hearts-minds-update-shooting-wounded-prisoners-in-a-mosque/274974/113 "2004-11-16T20:08:53Z")
> [@BubbaDog](#): > > Yes it is. If you follow around wounded soldiers who have been fighting house-to-house for days with little or no sleep you’re bound to pick up one or two of these gems. Maybe getcherself a pulitzer if its good enough. > > This stuff happens all the time. I do not condone it but I do recognize that, since the time we quit lining up in two lines and shooting at each other from opposite sides of a field war got a lot nastier. > > The soldier was wrong. He mad a mistake which cost the life of an enemy combatant. > > The reporter however, just shot the insurgents’ next recruiting video. > > You may commence your dogpile attack on me now. :wally ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hearts-minds-update-shooting-wounded-prisoners-in-a-mosque/274974/114 "2004-11-16T20:08:53Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > How so? In the case of a conflict between a signatory (the US) and a non-signatory (the insurgents) the signatory (the US) shall remain bound until such time as the non-signatory (the insurgents) no longer acts under the strictures of the convention. (sawing motherfuckers heads off) I don’t agree with that, I was just asking for clarification. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hearts-minds-update-shooting-wounded-prisoners-in-a-mosque/274974/115 "2004-11-16T20:13:53Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > In the case of a conflict between a signatory (the US) and a non-signatory (the insurgents) the signatory (the US) shall remain bound until such time as the non-signatory (the insurgents) no longer acts under the strictures of the convention. (sawing motherfuckers heads off) > > I don’t agree with that, I was just asking for clarification. I think you would have to prove that the wounded prisoner had some sort of afffiliation with those who were “cutting motherfuckers’ heads off.” That’s the problem with an enemy who fights under no national charter. We don’t know who’s alligned with who and a soldier on the ground has no authority to determine what group has violated Convention strictures and what group hasn’t. ---
**Author:** ![BubbaDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bubbadog/32/333_2.png) [@BubbaDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BubbaDog)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hearts-minds-update-shooting-wounded-prisoners-in-a-mosque/274974/116 "2004-11-16T20:18:21Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > That’s the problem with an enemy who fights under no national charter. We don’t know who’s alligned with who and a soldier on the ground has no authority to determine what group has violated Convention strictures and what group hasn’t. Maybe we should get them to wear uniforms or something. And that was a pretty weak dogpile. ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hearts-minds-update-shooting-wounded-prisoners-in-a-mosque/274974/117 "2004-11-16T20:25:34Z")
> [@BubbaDog](#): > > Maybe we should get them to wear uniforms or something. > > And that was a pretty weak dogpile. **Dio** , we know you’re against the war. (Not an illegal war, just a continuation of the '91 war since the armistice wasn’t honored, hence end of the cease fire) Can you think of any reason at all that Hussein shouldn’t have been removed? I’ll just leave a soft hint about the UN scandal. Better yet, can you tell us why Saddam should have remained in tyrannical power? ---
**Author:** ![esquimalt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/4af34b/32.png) [@esquimalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/esquimalt)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hearts-minds-update-shooting-wounded-prisoners-in-a-mosque/274974/118 "2004-11-16T20:29:31Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > How so? Shooting from, & storing ammunitions in Mosques are violations of the Geneva Convention. ---
**Author:** ![Yeticus\_Rex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a698b9/32.png) [@Yeticus\_Rex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yeticus_Rex)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hearts-minds-update-shooting-wounded-prisoners-in-a-mosque/274974/119 "2004-11-16T20:33:27Z")
> [@wring](#): > > so, **Bubba** is it your position that the _reporter_ is the one who fucked up the most here? by \*\*reporting \*\* what he saw? we should attempt to hide our wrong behavior? **that’s** the solution? just never admit that we’ve done wrong? That always works so well. We saw 2 minutes of a certain soldier’s life through the camera of a reporter, and some of us have already labeled him a murderer. Before I would even condemn him for this one action, I would like to know what experience and info (from his superiors) he has received in the previous hours, days, weeks, even months that led him to make the decision of shooting this insurgient. The reporter only shows you the action itself, but not all of the facts nor what the soldier was thinking at that moment in time when he acted. Since I have never been in the military of any kind and have never experienced what that soldier experienced, I feel obligated that I must reserve judgement on that 2 minutes of a soldiers life. I’m a bit surprised that **Reeder** (who has served) does not afford the same. The rest of you who rushed to judge, I would expect that from you, as usual. And **rjung** , your shit is tired. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hearts-minds-update-shooting-wounded-prisoners-in-a-mosque/274974/120 "2004-11-16T20:34:35Z")
**Bubba** you’re frankly not worth much effort dogpile wise. but let me point out to you the niavite of believing that w/o things like reporters video taping that truth of what happened won’t be found out. There would be evidence, other witnesses etc. Allowing barbaric and wrongful acts to keep on occuring w/out consequences actually **increases** the liklihood of more acts, and that they will ultimately be discovered. **duffer** your fall back position of “well Saddam was really really bad” is a text book example of the fallacy of the excluded middle. The choices were simply not limited to “invade IRaq in March 2003” and “allow Saddam to rule indefinately”. by the way - any response to my post from the second page? where you claimed that “Americans” would be against torture? and I pointed out that didn’t seem supportable? I mean with the nominated AG and all, having written a memo in support of the use of terror. You know, not just any schmoe on a barstool, but a major player in the administration?? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hearts-minds-update-shooting-wounded-prisoners-in-a-mosque/274974.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hearts-minds-update-shooting-wounded-prisoners-in-a-mosque/274974.md?page=7)