Hearts & Minds update: Shooting wounded prisoners in a mosque.

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@Jurph

DtC, do we agree that it is possible that the Marine was justified in his decision, even though in hindsight it was the wrong one? That is, do you admit that the Marine could not have known conclusively whether the Iraqi posed a threat or not at the time he fired the shot?

I think he should get a fair trial and the opportunity to present any exculpatory or mitigating evdence that he has. So far, I have not seen that any such evidence exists.

Do you think the LT would be justified in asking the reporter to not publish (nor hand over) the tape for at least a day or two while the LT sorted out what happened? Knowing what you do of officers, do you trust the average Marine LT to make an honest attempt to see justice served? Lastly, do you think the reporter should lend any weight to the LT’s (at this point purely hypothetical) discussion of the consequences of publishing the tape?

I don’t like the idea of the military leaning on reporters to turn over tapes (coincidentally, my mother was a journalist so I’m sympathetic to them).

It’s not so much that I don’t trust that particular officer but that I have no faith the tape would not simply get buried by the civilian leadership.

And the civilian leadership is who 99% of my beef is with, not the soldiers or officers on the ground.

However the guys who are on the ground have got to stop doing shit like this.

[MaryP]

Did Bill manage to say Fallujah instead of Falafal?

Jurph - I have never served but have family that have and I have spent a lot of time with military families. I agree with your evaluation of Lts in general - some of the best.

Whatever gets done, the overall circumstances, and not 2 minutes on tape, will need to be considered. There is a lot that should be factored in to the culpability, or level of culpability, of the soldier involved in the shooting.

But there is no way the tape should be suppressed or its release coordinated through the military, IMO. The whole point of covering the war is to show how awful it is. It is always awful. No one gets to wear the “good guys” t-shirt all the time. People like Roseworm and O’Reilly think it’s some friggin video game, without real faces and real people and real - awful - consequences.

Protecting the soldier (not covering up, but making sure the very best face gets put on the situation) would have been a part of the Lt’s responsiblity. But that’s not the reporter’s responsibility. War coverage isn’t about protecting anyone. Not even the reporters (no one with the military “cleared” it with the press corp b4 they fired on the Palestine Hotel). It’s about showing people that war is awful. War ALWAYS breeds one brutality after another. To scrub it up and only have or “good guy” or “brave guy” pics does the disservice of making war seem so much nicer and “easier” than it is.

Everyone is a “good guy” to someone who has been on the wrong side of an atrocity, and everyone is a “bad guy” to the other side. To rise above the latest atrocity, and be a good guy even when it is still staring you in the face, is beyond difficult. It is something I think our military does an awful lot - and the credit is diminished by fluff and floss.

Even so, I shudder to think of a military who goes to war taking with them the message : “don’t worry - no one’s gonna see what we do, at least not until we screen it first”

A piece of video that makes people sit up and acknowledge that war is shocking and is awful – that should not get buried or delayed IMO.

But I feel for the soldier involved. He was over there with the shock and the awfulness everyday. He didn’t get to change channels .

God I hate war.

[BubbaDog]

@Diogenes the Cynic

I trained and served in Orlando. I was not cut out for the military

Well shit Dio, I apologize for doubting your ability to comprehend the state of mind of a foot soldier participating in 5 days of urban warfare firefighting. I’m relieved to see that you made it out of Disneyworld alive.

[minty_green]

Your post suggests that morality is flexible, that there are no universal values. And here I was thinking that shooting unarmed and incapacitated persons in the forehead on the grounds that they are “fucking faking [they’re] dead” was inherently bad, regardless of how angry you were at other people. Thank you for informing me that there are circumstances that excuse such behavior. I am glad that moral relativism wins the day.

[elucidator]

It almost doesn’t matter. Not to sneer at debates on morality and conflict, but the perception is far more important than the facts. However humanely I may consider the situation this soldier found himself in, there is no way to ignore the disastrous consequences. Just when one thinks our reputation in the Muslim world just couldn’t get worse, one of our soldiers murders an unarmed freedom fighter in a mosque. Now, it no longer matters how much fact there is to this horrifying meme, it is the truth now, for all that truth matters.

The next Iraqi insurgent who weighs the prospect of an honorable surrender in the face of overpowering force? Clearly, the prospect of being murdered by one’s captors has to impact his thinking in a major way. Again, let me emphasize, it does not in the least matter that this isn’t true. That was one hell of a bullet, it may have killed hundreds. God willing, only hundreds.

The best solution is the “Calley treatment”. Make a big whoopity-whoopity about a stern trial, hand down a Draconian sentence, and, as soon as the heat dies down, take out the eraser end of that pencil and cut him loose. It would not be right, it would not be just, but it would save lives, assuming we have even that much credibility left.

[Jurph]

Oh sweet Jesus, minty green. I’d love to know where you think your black-and-white views would get you over there. I know, it’s rephrensible to disobey the Geneva Convention; we need to be the Good Guys[sup]TM[/sup] and care for their wounded (like we had been doing regularly until they started booby-trapping them). If it’s always morally correct to care for the wounded, then buy a fucking plane ticket to Baghdad International. I know a Marine LT over there who’d be happier than a pig in shit to have someone on his staff with your razor-sharp intellect and unquestioning moral clarity. He’d probably be happy to assign you to hold the moral high ground… oh, and while you’re up there, to check all the bodies for explosives.

Let me know how that works out for you.

[elucidator]

I like it better when you guys just jump up and down and scream “Mandate! Mandate!”

[Roseworm]

Kevin Sites (the freelance NBC correspondent at the scene) says:

“I have witnessed the Marines behaving as a disciplined and professional force throughout this offensive. In this particular case, it certainly was a confusing situation to say the least.”

On the whole, Mr. Sites appears to be sympathetic to the Marines. Check his site: http://www.kevinsites.net/.

I am not going to justify what the Marine did, except to point out that he openly killed a man in front of a TV camera crew. I think it is fair to say that, in the Marine’s own mind, at least, he was not obviously trying to get away with something fishy.

In any case, the thing is being investigated and the Marine’s superiors will have to make a difficult decision.

Those who killed Margaret Hassan (and the other innocent hostages) will never face any such formal tribunal or court of justice.

[elucidator]

That guy lying there all shot to pieces, he killed Margret Hassan? Well, shit, man, why didn’t you say so!

(You sure? 'Cause, you know, they do all look alike…)

[Blalron]

@elucidator

The best solution is the “Calley treatment”. Make a big whoopity-whoopity about a stern trial, hand down a Draconian sentence, and, as soon as the heat dies down, take out the eraser end of that pencil and cut him loose. It would not be right, it would not be just, but it would save lives, assuming we have even that much credibility left.

I’m with you on that, except for the “eraser” part. I don’t see why being a soldier gives you a “get out of murder free” card.

[RedFury]

’Mercy killing’ of Iraqi revives GI conduct debate – Teen rubbish patrol shot up by troops – wounded youth slain

Baghdad – As a U.S. Army patrol rolled into Sadr City one night in August, soldiers received a tip that militants in dump trucks were planting roadside bombs.

American troops had been clashing regularly with the Mahdi Army – Muqtada al-Sadr’s militia – in the restive Baghdad slum. So when Staff Sgt. Cardenas Alban of Carson, Los Angeles County, saw an object fall from a garbage truck in the distance, his company took positions around the vehicle and unleashed a barrage of fire from rifles and a 25-millimeter cannon atop a Bradley fighting vehicle. The truck exploded in flames.

As soldiers from the 1st Battalion, 41st Infantry Regiment approached the burning vehicle, they did not find insurgents. The victims were mainly teenagers, hired to work the late shift picking up trash for about $5 a night, witnesses said.

Medics scrambled to treat the half a dozen people strewn around the scene. A dispute broke out among a handful of soldiers standing over one severely wounded young man who was moaning in pain. An unwounded Iraqi claiming to be a relative of the victim pleaded in broken English for soldiers to help him.

But to the horror of bystanders, Alban, 29, a boyish-faced sergeant who joined the Army in 1997, retrieved an M-231 assault rifle and fired into the wounded man’s body. Seconds later, another soldier, Staff Sgt. Johnny Horne Jr. , 30, of Winston-Salem, N.C., grabbed an M-16 rifle and also shot the victim.

<snip>

U.S. officials have since characterized the shooting as a "mercy killing, " citing statements by Alban and Horne that they had shot the wounded Iraqi “to put him out of his misery.”

Military attorneys, however, are calling it premeditated murder and have charged the two sergeants, saying the victim’s suffering was no excuse for the soldiers’ actions.

“I have no doubt that’s why they did it,” said Capt. John Maloney, one of the military attorneys prosecuting the case. “But it still constitutes murder.”

Hard to tell who the terrorists are in Iraq these days.

[Unregistered_Bull]

And the neat thing in Iraq is that these soldiers have now probably made an enemy of his entire extended family, some member(s) of which will kill an American soldier or collaborator or at least give aid and comfort to those that do.

[Declan]

@bluethree

What, exactly, is threatening about faking being dead?

Can’t remember the title of the movie, only it was about some commie sniper in WW2. Anyways , at some point in the beginning of the movie , some german soldiers are doing an armed recon of a town square , driving by some circular fountain , filled with dead commies piling up over the side.

They circle around the fountain , firing their weapons into the corpses of the dead reds, obviously to make sure that they stay dead , indeed the protaganist is actually in the foutain with his trusty weapon , and procedes to whack a bunch of germans a few minutes later.

So here you are in F-town, some previous corpse starts to move about , our marine may have decided that he is a real live tango , with a frag grenade under his body or a belt of semtex strapped to his body, and he is not in the position that the leaflets that were airdropped or the radio broadcasts , for proper surrender.

There was no mention of any sort of identification , by the previous unit ,that these individuals had surrendered and were awaiting transport or what ever , to the rear area for processing, and could have been swapped( the dead bodies) for die hards, who would be gleefully sending some young marines to their deaths.

Now , Marines are travel agents for Allah , going all the way back to the shores of tripoli, sending young middle eastern men , to meet with their 72 new brides in pristeen condition, so this marine faces a momentary decision , with a regretable lack of politcal situaltional awareness, and defacto decides to be tried by twelve, instead of carried by six.

So , now he is on a plane back to Conus , stopping at walter reed ,and will most likely be spending some time in Parris Island awaiting his inquiry. I think that he will under go a military version of the grand jury ,to see if a crime has been commited ,before a court of inquiry decides to convene a general court martial.

Which in about a year from now , will be were the military decides that it was regrettable, but un avoidable concidering all the circumstances ,and that a series of cascading decicions led to this marines conduct, where by it will be concided a training item, on future occupations, thus exonerated.

His fictional character will be tried on Jag , way before the actual court of inquiry gets together.

Declan

[FinnAgain]

@Declan

Can’t remember the title of the movie

Enemy at the Gates

[Latro]

There was no mention of any sort of identification , by the previous unit ,that these individuals had surrendered and were awaiting transport or what ever , to the rear area for processing, and could have been swapped( the dead bodies) for die hards, who would be gleefully sending some young marines to their deaths.

You probably missed the bit where they clearly ask, on arrival; “So this is the place?” “The one with the wounded?”

So here you are in F-town, some previous corpse starts to move about , our marine may have decided that he is a real live tango , with a frag grenade under his body or a belt of semtex strapped to his body,

Bollocks, all these attempts to paint this as a stressful situation where someone made an honest mistake, make me sick.

There was no stress situation, no scramble.
This wasn’t like ‘Jezus this one is alive, take cover!’ ratatata from the hip.

I see a soldier stepping up, calmly take aim and shoot. All real casual.

[World_Eater]

@Roseworm

About half an hour ago, Bill O’Reilly at FOX stated that (in his opinion) the Marine is innocent and should be exonerated - even congratulated.

That is a pretty bold statement.

I like it.

And this in a nutshell is why terrorists will attack us for decades to come.

[Sevastopol]

@Latro

You probably missed the bit where they clearly ask, on arrival; “So this is the place?” “The one with the wounded?”

Bollocks, all these attempts to paint this as a stressful situation where someone made an honest mistake, make me sick.

There was no stress situation, no scramble.
This wasn’t like ‘Jezus this one is alive, take cover!’ ratatata from the hip.

I see a soldier stepping up, calmly take aim and shoot. All real casual.

Ditt’ goddamn’ O.

The boy, he has a job. Is he an interior designer, delivering your milk or something? I don’t think so. The uniform gives it away real quick.

So, he’s doing his job, what he’s trained for and equipped & we are supposed to believe, he just goes to pieces?

[Sevastopol]

@World Eater

And this in a nutshell is why terrorists will attack us for decades to come.

As well as the sane and the decent and the rational people, and the just.

[smartini]

@Roseworm

About half an hour ago, Bill O’Reilly at FOX stated that (in his opinion) the Marine is innocent and should be exonerated - even congratulated.

That is a pretty bold statement.

I like it.

Only if you spell bold: s-t-u-p-i-d.

But who in their right mind expects more from Bill O’Reilly?

Jurph, thank you for your posts to this thread

I caught up reading them this morning and you have expressed, remarkably calmly, what I have been feeling and obviously could not say as eloquently.

[World_Eater]

@sevastopol

As well as the sane and the decent and the rational people, and the just.