# Heaven and Hell: How many should go to each?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heaven-and-hell-how-many-should-go-to-each/827601
**Category:** In My Humble Opinion
**Created:** [January 11, 2019, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heaven-and-hell-how-many-should-go-to-each/827601 "2019-01-11T17:26:43Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 7
### Author:  [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)
#### Post date: [January 22, 2019, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heaven-and-hell-how-many-should-go-to-each/827601/121 "2019-01-22T19:19:29Z")
> [@EinsteinsHund](#):
>
> I haven’t read C.S Lewis, but I’d be really interested why. Can you elaborate?
_The Great Divorce_ is one of my favorite Lewis works.
It’s a fairly short story (can be read in 1-2 sittings) in which a group of souls from hell including the protagonist are allowed to visit the outer bounds of heaven (presumably purgatory). They are allowed to either stay or return.
It’s Lewis’ speculation on how a place like hell can exist when God is all-loving and all-good. It’s very thoughtful and definitely worth a read.
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### Author:  [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)
#### Post date: [January 22, 2019, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heaven-and-hell-how-many-should-go-to-each/827601/122 "2019-01-22T20:01:15Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#):
>
> _The Great Divorce_ is one of my favorite Lewis works.
>
> It’s a fairly short story (can be read in 1-2 sittings) in which a group of souls from hell including the protagonist are allowed to visit the outer bounds of heaven (presumably purgatory). They are allowed to either stay or return.
>
> It’s Lewis’ speculation on how a place like hell can exist when God is all-loving and all-good. It’s very thoughtful and definitely worth a read.
Thanks, sounds interesting, I have a good friend who’s a live long C.S. Lewis fan, and I’m sure that she got the story and will lend it to me :).
I just couldn’t imagine how a soul that’s condemned to the Christian hell as I understand it can have ANY incentive to stay, since every other place seems preferable.
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### Author:  [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)
#### Post date: [January 22, 2019, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heaven-and-hell-how-many-should-go-to-each/827601/123 "2019-01-22T20:03:59Z")
> [@EinsteinsHund](#):
>
> I just couldn’t imagine how a soul that’s condemned to the Christian hell as I understand it can have ANY incentive to stay, since every other place seems preferable.
It’s hard to imagine, but I guess it’s the same reason some people persist in destructive lifestyles or keep making bad choices in spite of assistance and advice from others.
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### Author:  [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)
#### Post date: [January 22, 2019, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heaven-and-hell-how-many-should-go-to-each/827601/124 "2019-01-22T20:18:21Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#):
>
> It’s hard to imagine, but I guess it’s the same reason some people persist in destructive lifestyles or keep making bad choices in spite of assistance and advice from others.
But you have to admit that cutting down on the cigs and stop cussing at your neighbors is much easier than deciding to remain in unimaginable terrors for eternity out of…spite? Or what else?
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### Author:  [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)
#### Post date: [January 22, 2019, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heaven-and-hell-how-many-should-go-to-each/827601/125 "2019-01-22T20:29:21Z")
> [@EinsteinsHund](#):
>
> But you have to admit that cutting down on the cigs and stop cussing at your neighbors is much easier than deciding to remain in unimaginable terrors for eternity out of…spite? Or what else?
Cigarettes? I doubt cigarettes sent anyone to hell.
I’m talking about serious things like deviant sexuality, lying about someone for the purpose of ruining their reputation or to gain undue advantage, alcoholism and drug addiction, prioritizing one’s own convenience/comfort over the life or well-being of another, etc.
These are things that warp a person’s sense of reality and cause a person to lose perspective on what is good vs. what is evil. When they get to that point, they may be incapable of choosing good, and may even see goodness as utterly repugnant.
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### Author:  [@nate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nate)
#### Post date: [January 22, 2019, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heaven-and-hell-how-many-should-go-to-each/827601/126 "2019-01-22T20:47:26Z")
I think anyone who truly believes anyone else should go to hell, ironically, should go there.
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### Author:  [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)
#### Post date: [January 22, 2019, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heaven-and-hell-how-many-should-go-to-each/827601/127 "2019-01-22T20:54:34Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#):
>
> Cigarettes? I doubt cigarettes sent anyone to hell.
>
> I’m talking about serious things like **deviant sexuality** , lying about someone for the purpose of ruining their reputation or to gain undue advantage, **alcoholism and drug addiction** , prioritizing one’s own convenience/comfort over the life or well-being of another, etc.
>
> These are things that warp a person’s sense of reality and cause a person to lose perspective on what is good vs. what is evil. When they get to that point, they may be incapable of choosing good, and may even see goodness as utterly repugnant.
[my bolding]
What you may call deviant sexuality may be another person’s pleasure. As long as everything is legal and consensual, there is no such thing as “deviant sexuality”. And why should a omni/omni/omni deity care about who sticks the what in the who?
And why do you make a difference between cigarettes, alcohol and “drug” use? Alcohol and nicotine are both also drugs and much more harmful than some of the things that are called drugs in that context. And I condemn no one for their use of any because it’s called addiction and illness that makes it damn heard to get out of. Addiction is certainly NOT the product of a stubborn mind, just the opposite.
And what does these petty human weaknesses, if you want to call them that (I wouldn’t), have to do with the dimension of taking eternal infernal suffering over a “Ok, I repent”? Maybe I really have to read Lewis’ story before I understand it.
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### Author:  [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)
#### Post date: [January 22, 2019, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heaven-and-hell-how-many-should-go-to-each/827601/128 "2019-01-22T21:10:27Z")
> [@EinsteinsHund](#):
>
> What you may call deviant sexuality may be another person’s pleasure. As long as everything is legal and consensual, there is no such thing as “deviant sexuality”. And why should a omni/omni/omni deity care about who sticks the what in the who?
??? I’m confused. I’m referring to things that (my own quote) “warp a person’s sense of reality and cause a person to lose perspective on what is good vs. what is evil”. I’m in no mood to get into graphic detail, but surely you could see how some sexual acts could cause (especially the victim) to become psychologically unstable, warp their sense of reality, and even distort their sense of right and wrong…
In response to the second part, if God is the creator of all things, then he created our bodies and gave them to us as a gift. I think it’s fair to assume that he cares what we do with them.
> [@EinsteinsHund](#):
>
> And why do you make a difference between cigarettes, alcohol and “drug” use? Alcohol and nicotine are both also drugs and much more harmful than some of the things that are called drugs in that context. And I condemn no one for their use of any because it’s called addiction and illness that makes it damn heard to get out of. Addiction is certainly NOT the product of a stubborn mind, just the opposite.
Many millions of people have destroyed their own lives and the lives of others through drug and alcohol abuse. Being under the influence of drugs and alcohol can cause people to become abusive (physically and sexually), negligent, and criminal in their behavior. Nicotine does not have that affect. Someone smoking 2 packs a day and dying of lung cancer at 52 is not the same thing as a heroin-addict ODing or committing suicide at 22, an alcoholic beating his spouse/children, or a crackhead robbing a convenience store.
Yes, the condition of chemical addiction causes a person to lose some culpability for their actions, but chemical addiction also creates a mini-hell in the addict and spreads that mini-hell to others.
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### Author:  [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)
#### Post date: [January 22, 2019, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heaven-and-hell-how-many-should-go-to-each/827601/129 "2019-01-22T21:19:30Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#):
>
> ??? I’m confused. I’m referring to things that (my own quote) “warp a person’s sense of reality and cause a person to lose perspective on what is good vs. what is evil”. I’m in no mood to get into graphic detail, but surely you could see how some sexual acts could cause (especially the victim) to become psychologically unstable, warp their sense of reality, and even distort their sense of right and wrong…
The keyword here is “victim”. I was talking about legal and consensual sex, so there are no victims. So what do YOU talk about?
ETA: though I must confess that I had sex that warped my senses of reality, but man, those were good times :-). But I still kept my moral radar.
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### Author:  [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)
#### Post date: [January 22, 2019, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heaven-and-hell-how-many-should-go-to-each/827601/130 "2019-01-22T21:22:18Z")
> [@EinsteinsHund](#):
>
> The keyword here is “victim”. I was talking about legal and consensual sex, so there are no victims. So what do YOU talk about?
My posts speak for themselves. You are creating a controversy where there is none; unless you are just trying to fish for my personal opinions regarding sexual morality.
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### Author:  [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)
#### Post date: [January 22, 2019, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heaven-and-hell-how-many-should-go-to-each/827601/131 "2019-01-22T21:25:45Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#):
>
> Many millions of people have destroyed their own lives and the lives of others through drug and alcohol abuse. Being under the influence of drugs and alcohol can cause people to become abusive (physically and sexually), negligent, and criminal in their behavior. Nicotine does not have that affect. Someone smoking 2 packs a day and dying of lung cancer at 52 is not the same thing as a heroin-addict ODing or committing suicide at 22, an alcoholic beating his spouse/children, or a crackhead robbing a convenience store.
>
> Yes, the condition of chemical addiction causes a person to lose some culpability for their actions, but chemical addiction also creates a mini-hell in the addict and spreads that mini-hell to others.
You can exchange “drug addiction” with mental illness (other than addiction), and everything applies at well. So are schizophrenics equally to be condemned?
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### Author:  [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)
#### Post date: [January 22, 2019, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heaven-and-hell-how-many-should-go-to-each/827601/132 "2019-01-22T21:29:09Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#):
>
> My posts speak for themselves. You are creating a controversy where there is none; unless you are just trying to fish for my personal opinions regarding sexual morality.
I certainly am not doing that, I just try to understand. If you’re too constrained to define it, I accept that, but then it’ll remain a mystery to me.
ETA: and no, I wasn’t expecting any graphics from you.
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### Author:  [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)
#### Post date: [January 22, 2019, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heaven-and-hell-how-many-should-go-to-each/827601/133 "2019-01-22T21:34:57Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#):
>
> Cigarettes? I doubt cigarettes sent anyone to hell.
>
> I’m talking about serious things like deviant sexuality, lying about someone for the purpose of ruining their reputation or to gain undue advantage, alcoholism and drug addiction, prioritizing one’s own convenience/comfort over the life or well-being of another, etc.
>
> These are things that warp a person’s sense of reality and cause a person to lose perspective on what is good vs. what is evil. When they get to that point, they may be incapable of choosing good, and may even see goodness as utterly repugnant.
Are you sure about these things, though? I recall hearing that there is no way to determine that a given person’s behavior will result in which eternal consignment. The deity is aware that humans are flawed and is willing to forgive their shortcomings, so the premise is that the reward is meted out based on the very quality of the individual’s faith in the deity. Which is a thing beyond direct measure: the nicest, best person you know may well end up in hell because they did not believe hard enough.
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### Author:  [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)
#### Post date: [January 22, 2019, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heaven-and-hell-how-many-should-go-to-each/827601/134 "2019-01-22T21:36:58Z")
> [@eschereal](#):
>
> Are you sure about these things, though? I recall hearing that there is no way to determine that a given person’s behavior will result in which eternal consignment. The deity is aware that humans are flawed and willing to forgive their shortcomings, so the premise is that the reward is meted out based on the very quality of the individual’s faith in the deity. Which is a thing beyond direct measure: the nicest, best person you know may well end up in hell because they did not believe hard enough.
This I can answer. That’s Protestant dogma,[sola fide](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sola_fide), not Catholic.
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### Author:  [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)
#### Post date: [January 22, 2019, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heaven-and-hell-how-many-should-go-to-each/827601/135 "2019-01-22T21:38:33Z")
> [@EinsteinsHund](#):
>
> This I can answer. That’s Protestant dogma, sole fides, not Catholic.
Which doctrine is correct?
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### Author:  [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)
#### Post date: [January 22, 2019, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heaven-and-hell-how-many-should-go-to-each/827601/136 "2019-01-22T21:42:47Z")
> [@eschereal](#):
>
> Which doctrine is correct?
LOL, what a question.
For the record, the Catholic one is correct 🆒
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### Author:  [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)
#### Post date: [January 22, 2019, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heaven-and-hell-how-many-should-go-to-each/827601/137 "2019-01-22T21:43:26Z")
> [@EinsteinsHund](#):
>
> I just couldn’t imagine how a soul that’s condemned to the Christian hell as I understand it can have ANY incentive to stay, since every other place seems preferable.
It would depend very heavily on what “Christian hell as I understand it” actually is - and what it’s like to be in heaven if you’re the sort of yutz who gets sent to hell. I’ve heard some descriptions of being in God’s presence where it _hurts_ to be there if you’re imperfect - and some where being in God’s direct presence as a sinner will _literally destroy you_ - disintegration style. And I’ve also heard people describe Hell as being a place not of demons and fire and pain - just of being away from God’s presence. Combine the two ideas and you get a situation like if there are people who like being outside basking in the sun - and you have people who squint and shade their eyes and duck back inside to hide in their basements. Perhaps if you’re the sort of person who murders, or rapes, or wears multiple types of fabric, you simply turn out to also be the sort of person who prefers the shade.
Myself, I think I’d rather _not_ be in the presence of some sociopathic judgemental douchebag with well-documented rage issues, thank you very much. I mean, sure, putting up with such horrible company would probably be better than endless, pointless _torture_, but if all Hell turns out to be is the ability to lock the door and pull the blinds and keep the door-to-door praise-singing evangelists out, then sign me up for eternal Netflix and get out of my way.
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### Author:  [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)
#### Post date: [January 22, 2019, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heaven-and-hell-how-many-should-go-to-each/827601/138 "2019-01-22T21:45:36Z")
> [@eschereal](#):
>
> Which doctrine is correct?
You’re asking ME that question :smack::D? I am a registered Dylanologist :).
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### Author:  [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)
#### Post date: [January 22, 2019, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heaven-and-hell-how-many-should-go-to-each/827601/139 "2019-01-22T21:49:00Z")
> [@begbert2](#):
>
> Myself, I think I’d rather _not_ be in the presence of some sociopathic judgemental douchebag with well-documented rage issues, thank you very much. I mean, sure, putting up with such horrible company would probably be better than endless, pointless _torture_, but if all Hell turns out to be is the ability to lock the door and pull the blinds and keep the door-to-door praise-singing evangelists out, then sign me up for eternal Netflix and get out of my way.
Like I’ve been suggesting this entire thread, nobody gets dragged to heaven _or_ hell kicking and screaming.
People freely choose their destination.
---
### Author:  [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)
#### Post date: [January 22, 2019, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heaven-and-hell-how-many-should-go-to-each/827601/140 "2019-01-22T21:50:24Z")
> [@begbert2](#):
>
> It would depend very heavily on what “Christian hell as I understand it” actually is - and what it’s like to be in heaven if you’re the sort of yutz who gets sent to hell. I’ve heard some descriptions of being in God’s presence where it _hurts_ to be there if you’re imperfect - and some where being in God’s direct presence as a sinner will _literally destroy you_ - disintegration style. And I’ve also heard people describe Hell as being a place not of demons and fire and pain - just of being away from God’s presence. Combine the two ideas and you get a situation like if there are people who like being outside basking in the sun - and you have people who squint and shade their eyes and duck back inside to hide in their basements. Perhaps if you’re the sort of person who murders, or rapes, or wears multiple types of fabric, you simply turn out to also be the sort of person who prefers the shade.
>
> Myself, I think I’d rather _not_ be in the presence of some sociopathic judgemental douchebag with well-documented rage issues, thank you very much. I mean, sure, putting up with such horrible company would probably be better than endless, pointless _torture_, but if all Hell turns out to be is the ability to lock the door and pull the blinds and keep the door-to-door praise-singing evangelists out, then sign me up for eternal Netflix and get out of my way.
Well if they have a big well-filled fridge and good wifi, I think I settle for purgatory. Hell is just a tad too mean.
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