Heaven and Hell: How many should go to each?

[begbert2]

@EscAlaMike

I should be more specific. The afterlife, if it exists, must necessarily be forever since its existsnce would seem to confirm the notion that our souls are immortal. “Heaven” is only a temporary and disembodied part of the afterlife. As I said, at some point (the return of Christ), heaven and earth will be re-made and we will be resurrected, whatever that may look like.

I’m honestly fine with you calling it whatever you like, but one of the following situations must obtain:

1. We cease to exist at some point.
2. We exist forever, but at some point cease be consciously aware.
3. We are at least intermittently aware of our existence forever.

Case 3 has two possible sub-cases: 3A, where (after some specific point) we enjoy all the parts of our eternal existence that we’re cognizant of, or 3B, where we don’t enjoy it all.

Personally, if you’re in 3A, I think it’s fair to call that heaven. Anything else, not so much. And I would call both of cases 1 and 2 annihilation scenarios.

@EscAlaMike

Not sure why you’re so fixated on harp-playing, but…like whatever a human could possibly be interested it. What interests you?

There is absolutely nothing I know of that I could do forever and still be happy doing it - I toggle activities every two to ten hours. But the point is that whatever you’re doing, it can’t possibly be productive or novel forever. So you better like spinning your wheels for nostolgia’s sake.

Fortunately for me I probably could cycle through the same several entertainment options forever, thanks to my relatively bad memory making things seem fresh again over and over. Er, I do get to keep my bad memory, right? If I didn’t have it eventually I’ll have seen and done it all and there’ll be nothing new under the sun.

@EscAlaMike

Run out of things to do? Seriously? How long do you think it would take to fully comprehend the entirety of knowledge in the entire universe including the divine essence itself?

Less than infinite time.

But even if there was an infinite list of things to know, it would inevitably start showing patterns and repetition and stop being novel - or it would just be random slush with no meaning and become boring as a whole.

(Plus doing all that learning sounds boring. Some people can stay in school forever; not me.)

@EscAlaMike

People talk about the afterlife “in your hearing” that often? I think you overestimate your auditory experience. I have run in devoutly religious circles my entire life, and I’ve rarely heard anyone talk meaningfully about the afterlife.

You’ve got to do some digging!

Or, alternatively, there hasn’t been much said because there isn’t much to say. It’s a fictional concept that sounds great when casually mentioned (“It’s a place where good people are happy forever! And everybody gets a pony!”) but like many fictional concepts it doesn’t hold together under scrutiny the way real things do.

But like I said, I’m willing to carefully consider any model of heaven presented to me. I’d be happy to consider it; as you can probably tell I find these sort of philosophical thinking games entertaining. But “One exists! Go dig for it yourself! It’s stored right next to the unicorns!” doesn’t count as presenting a model to me.

[RTFirefly]

@begbert2

I chose not to answer because neither eternal mindless bliss nor eternal torment is merited by anybody.

Honestly, both sound horrific.

@Sage_Rat

If ever there was any evidence that this board is full of crazy lefties, I guess the “Free Heaven for Everyone” option having 60% of the vote is about as good of evidence as you would ever need.

Y’all is crazy and don’t understand the world, but I guess I’m glad that you’re all optimists at least.

@senoy

I’m a leftie and a Christian universalist. I do think that we all go to heaven, but not due to our own actions, but rather the grace of God.

This. None of us deserve Heaven, but like you say, the grace of God. In the words of Rhymin’ Simon:

*I’ve reason to believe we all will be received, in Graceland. *

@senoy

I think that ultimately he wants the reconciliation of all people. I might be able to be convinced that there’s a temporary Hell/Purgatory for the Hitlers of the world, but I think that God’s forgiveness could even reach him. Are we deserving of going to Heaven? No, probably not a single one of us. Humans are selfish, nasty little creatures as a general rule, but I think God loves us enough to overlook our foibles. I think that that is ultimately the fulfillment of the law as embodied by Christ. We’re all far short of where we need to be and God loves us so much he is willing to suffer and die for us anyway.

This, only I’d say God doesn’t overlook what’s in us; but to let God’s love into our hearts is fundamentally transforming. If we let his love into our hearts, God will change us into something more than we’ve been. As e.e. cummings said, “now the ears of my ears awake and now the eyes of my eyes are opened.”

Yeah. Like that. How it was, how it will be.

[jackdavinci]

If some version of an all-everything creator were the current model of reality, it only stands to reason that those parts of reality we consider ourselves and our environment are just parts of the creator on loan so to speak as part of the creator experimenting or entertaining itself. In other words, we are essentially God’s finger puppets. It would make no sense for God to spite and punish their own fingers for an experiment/drama they set up in the first place. Unless God is a masochist. Even were the results of giving their fingers free will not ideal, it doesn’t make sense to punish them for accurate data, when they can just be reattached.

[Wesley_Clark]

If the afterlife existed, everyone should go to heaven no matter what.

Nobody deserves an eternity of torment.

[blondebear]

Gotta watch the number of folks who go to hell. As we all know, when it’s full the dead will walk the earth.

[jackdavinci]

Also, is this because you’ve been watching The Good Place?

[JB99]

The more we learn about how the brain functions, the less the concept of Hell makes any damned sense.

[Drunky_Smurf]

@Czarcasm

Eternal bliss is overly generous, but eternal torture is overly petty and vindictive.
Which god do you believe in?

The one that made both.

[Thudlow_Boink]

@begbert2

If you’re in heaven and eternally mourn the fact there are people in hell, then is it still heaven? If you’re in heaven and don’t eternally mourn the fact there are people in hell, then is it still heaven? How could such heartless bastards deserve heaven?

I wonder about that too. Two possible resolutions: There’s ultimately no one in hell (as in bump’s view, for example). Or, there are people in hell, but it’s clear that it is Right and Good for them to be there, so there’s nothing to mourn.

And on a completely different subject, you’re living forever here. What’s stopping you from getting bored? You can’t learn new things forever; eventually you’ll have learned all there is to learn, met everyone there is to meet, and consumed all the entertainment there is to consume. How will you be happy in an interminable heaven with nothing to engage your mind?

This would worry me too, if I thought that heaven was time that went on forever. So instead I think that there is no time in Heaven, at least not in the same sense that we experience time in our earthly existence. I think quite a few theologians would agree. But this sort of existence is so far outside of my experience, I can’t imagine what it would be like.

[ExTank]

Other.

To each their own. Sort of a, “If there’s even such a thing as Heaven or Hell, may each person reap the rewards (or punishments) their individual deeds merit.”

[Der_Trihs]

Given the binary choice, send everyone to Heaven; nobody deserves Hell.

[Sage_Rat]

@senoy

I’m a leftie and a Christian universalist. I do think that we all go to heaven, but not due to our own actions, but rather the grace of God. I think that ultimately he wants the reconciliation of all people. I might be able to be convinced that there’s a temporary Hell/Purgatory for the Hitlers of the world, but I think that God’s forgiveness could even reach him. Are we deserving of going to Heaven? No, probably not a single one of us. Humans are selfish, nasty little creatures as a general rule, but I think God loves us enough to overlook our foibles. I think that that is ultimately the fulfillment of the law as embodied by Christ. We’re all far short of where we need to be and God loves us so much he is willing to suffer and die for us anyway.

That’s now what the question was, though.

It’s “If you were God, how would you apportion them?”

[kaylasdad99]

Eternity? Beyond the heat death of the universe eternity? And I get to experience that and CONTINUE experiencing it for another eternity?

You can keep your Eternity; nobody deserves that.

[Bullitt]

Heaven can wait.

[senoy]

@Sage_Rat

That’s now what the question was, though.

It’s “If you were God, how would you apportion them?”

It’s too hard of a question. The concepts of heaven and hell are too metaphorical biblically to draw many conclusions about them. Our limited subjective perspective also makes us incapable of comprehending the seriousness of our deeds or misdeeds. An example might be George Brayton who invented the internal combustion engine. He inadvertantly set the world on course for untold suffering. It’s not unreasonable to think his action will cause more deaths than all the great genocides in history. Should this suffering he unleashed require some justice to balance? Look at the various researchers who have fought against infant mortality. Their deeds have led to the out of control growth of human population and the destruction of 2/3 of all wildlife ushering in the 6th great extinction event. Surely they deserve comeuppance for playing God. Or do they?

[SamuelA]

@Buck_Godot

Looking at the standard justifications for punishment: retribution, deterrence, rehabilitation and incapacitation.

While many people on earth are deterred from evil based on the idea that they will go to hell, no one actually knows what actually happens to people, so whether we actually send people to hell or just let everyone into heaven has no deterrent effect.

As far as rehabilitation and incapacitation goes, they are based on the idea the idea of preventing that individual from performing bad acts either while he is under punishment or in the future. Since presumably heaven is eternal paradise where it is impossible to take actions that hurt others, these are irrelevant as well.

So all that leaves us with is retribution. I’ve nenver really been all that big on revenge, any net increase in suffering without some sort of positive payoff is bad in my opinion, even if the person has caused suffering to others. And even if I believed that punishment for its own sake was moral, no mater how bad a person is, personally experiencing all of the suffering they caused some 10 million times over seems overkill to me, much less an eternity, so there is a far greater evil to the person condemned to hell, than the moral hazard of letting such a person into heaven.

So if heaven and hell are your only two options everyone should go to heaven.

Well thought out. You know, one line of argument : if the “system” created by a being powerful enough to create an entire universe is as stupid as religions publish it, then this is a paradox. No “god-like” being with the kind of knowledge and power to even create our universe, much less to supposedly hand design the life on earth and fake all the evidence that it was evolved, would have such a poor system for handling human behavior and morality.

It’s truly unjust if it works anything like any of the religions I know of.

That is to say, this atheist argument, which I am sure is quite old even though I have not personally heard it, is “Your religion is too stupid for a genuine deity to have designed it. Therefore it’s false”

[Tim_R.Mortiss]

No fixed proportion. I would hope that God doesn’t grade on a curve. What if I were to die in a month* where, say, 90% of the decedents were absolute saints? I’d be hellbound for sure. But if I were to croak the same month that a thousand terrorists were executed, I’d be lookin’ mighty fine.

*or whatever batch size God uses.

[Gyrate]

@begbert2

Annihilation for everybody!

Annihilation for some, miniature American flags for others!

@Sage_Rat

That’s now what the question was, though.

It’s “If you were God, how would you apportion them?”

If I were God, I’d have a much less Manichaean afterlife scheme.

[Budget_Player_Cadet]

Every time this discussion comes up, I’m reminded of two pieces of media.

The first is a mediocre Adult Swim show called “Your Pretty Face Is Going to Hell”.

The second is “The Broadcast” from Unsong. A few quick excerpts:

“Most of Hell looks like this,” said Santoni. Now there were visible bruises on his face. “The people in these cages…you can’t see it from this vantage point, but the temperature is above a thousand degrees. Those iron bars are molten hot. The sort of bodies these people have, they can’t burn, but they can still feel heat just as intensely as the living. More intensely. They don’t need food to live, but hunger pangs are just as intense. They don’t need water, but the thirst is…” He cut himself off. “There’s another difference between their bodies and ours, which is that their minds don’t break and they don’t acclimate…the thousandth day here is just as bad as the first…” He looked toward someone off camera. “Please don’t make me continue…don’t…” Some kind of signal I couldn’t see. “We’re going to interview some of these people, see what…”

“One of the great things about suckers who never give up hope,” Golachab told Santoni and the camera, “is that they try to bargain their way out. For the tiniest shred of a possibility of a ticket out, or even a less crowded cage, or maybe a couple weeks’ reprieve from the ministrations of some of the worse demons, you have no idea what people will offer. No stoic suffering here. The best way to take someone’s virtue is to let them do the work figuring out how to degrade themselves in exchange for a carrot dangled at the edge of their vision. I bet that young man there, before he came to Hell, genuinely believed that no amount of suffering could turn him against those he loved. And now we don’t even have to ask, and he’s offering to torture his mother for two thousand years. We’ll say no, and he’ll scream, and we’ll come back in a couple decades to see what else he has in mind, and he’ll offer to do things so perverse and disgusting it will kind of even frighten us, and then we’ll say no again, and we’ll let him keep all the torture he already has, plus the knowledge that he has tried as hard as he can to sell out every principle he ever believed in and it has profited him nothing. Or maybe we’ll take him up on it, let him torture his mother for two millennia, and then not give him anything in return, just to see his face when he realizes it was all for nothing. Or maybe we’ll take him up on it and give him a couple hours reprieve from his tortures – because why not – and then back here for another millennium.”

If your conception of hell is anything like the classical christian conception, and you would sincerely wish that on anyone, the one of two things is true:

1. You have given the concept less than zero thought, or
2. You are a disgusting, pitiable sociopath, regardless of whether you were born that way, or your religious beliefs destroyed your ability for basic compassion.

Usually it’s door 1. Hell is a hard thing to really think about, to the point where we repackage it as dumb jokes and treat “you’re going to be subjected to horrific torture forever” as the punchline (personally, I stopped watching “Your Pretty Face Is Going To Hell” because it was giving me nightmares and the jokes mostly just horrified me). Nobody deserves eternal torture. There’s literally nothing you could possibly do, no harm you could possibly commit, which could in any way be equivalent or proportional. And when it comes to serious religious scholars, who clearly have given it a fair bit of thought… This is a great example of how religion can utterly poison one’s morality.

[Ludovic]

I’m with the “nobody deserves eternal punishment, and eternal reward isn’t that great, either” camp.

I’d say only half of people should go to heaven immediately. Around 40% probably should go to some sort of purgatory where they would either reflect on their lives or be mildly punished for a period after which they’d go to Heaven. Around 10% should go to Hell for some period where they’d be severely punished for awhile, but several years maximum would be more punishment than anyone has inflicted on anyone else. Yes, even him, and him. Most would only go there for a few days, then off to Purgatory for a spell.

And Heaven would be optional and magically changeable, where you could either just choose oblivion, or sleep for awhile to see what the rest of the universe does, or play any sort of game you want in any scenario. It definitely wouldn’t be just sitting on a cloud and singing praise to the Lord for Tree(g(64)) millennia.