# Heaven forbid - grammatical mistake in The New Yorker? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 20, 2016, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heaven-forbid-grammatical-mistake-in-the-new-yorker/760399 "2016-07-20T05:24:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Guest-starring\_Id](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guest-starring_id/32/21736_2.png) [@Guest-starring\_Id](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guest-starring_Id)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heaven-forbid-grammatical-mistake-in-the-new-yorker/760399/1 "2016-07-20T05:24:48Z")
Normally wouldn’t start a thread over something mundane (cough cough wrong thread? cough) as grammar nazi stuff, but considering it’s a question about something where you don’t often see slip-ups in that kinda publication… Maybe it’s legit and _I’m_ off in calling this a dangling participle?.. From George Saunders’s “Trump Days” article (July 11 & 18, p. 57)… "I looked over to find Danny shouting at us that Hillary was going to prison, not the White House. I waved to him, but he didn’t seem **to see me, hidden there in the crowd of his own adversaries**. I bolded the ending…is “me” inaccurately attributed to “the crowd of his own adversaries”? ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heaven-forbid-grammatical-mistake-in-the-new-yorker/760399/2 "2016-07-20T05:37:27Z")
Danny didn’t see you. He was looking in your general direction, but you were hidden in a crowd of Danny’s adversaries. I’m not seeing the problem here. “Hidden there in the crowd of his own adversaries” is an adjectival phrase qualifying “me”, but the pronoun “his” clearly refers back to “he”, not to “me”. ---
**Author:** ![Guest-starring\_Id](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guest-starring_id/32/21736_2.png) [@Guest-starring\_Id](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guest-starring_Id)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heaven-forbid-grammatical-mistake-in-the-new-yorker/760399/3 "2016-07-20T05:44:16Z")
you’re right. dang. mods - you can blast this to smithereens thanks. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heaven-forbid-grammatical-mistake-in-the-new-yorker/760399/4 "2016-07-20T05:44:37Z")
There’s absolutely nothing wrong with the sentence. I honestly don’t even see what you’re questioning. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heaven-forbid-grammatical-mistake-in-the-new-yorker/760399/5 "2016-07-20T06:22:34Z")
I do see what you mean. It took me a minute to parse it. It skates over some fairly thin ice, even if it is perfectly correct. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heaven-forbid-grammatical-mistake-in-the-new-yorker/760399/6 "2016-07-20T07:02:11Z")
It’s ambiguous (is that not a stylistic fault on the New Yorker anyway?), but the phrase “his _own_ adversaries” suggests that the intention was to indicate that Danny, rather than the speaker, was hidden - in which case the OP is right. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heaven-forbid-grammatical-mistake-in-the-new-yorker/760399/7 "2016-07-20T07:34:54Z")
> [@PatrickLondon](#): > > It’s ambiguous (is that not a stylistic fault on the New Yorker anyway?), but the phrase “his _own_ adversaries” suggests that the intention was to indicate that Danny, rather than the speaker, was hidden - in which case the OP is right. No. Again, the sentence is perfectly correct. The context in which it appears unambiguously establishes the meaning: Once, after what felt like a transcendent and wide-ranging conversation with a Trump supporter named Danny (a former railroad worker, now on disability), I said a fond goodbye and went to interview some Hillary supporters across the street. A few minutes later, I looked over to find Danny shouting at us that Hillary was going to prison, not the White House. I waved to him, but he didn’t seem to see me, hidden there in the crowd of his adversaries. The participial phrase “hidden there in the crowd of his adversaries” should logically refer to the immediately preceding noun, “me”, the writer. As indeed it does. The writer, having crossed the street to join the Hillary group, was now amongst Danny’s adversaries. He waved to Danny, but Danny couldn’t see him. Not just correct, but good, clear writing. It’s the _New Yorker_. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 8:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heaven-forbid-grammatical-mistake-in-the-new-yorker/760399/8 "2016-07-20T08:55:11Z")
I’m sorry, I don’t agree. It is, at best, ambiguous. It is certainly bad writing as I misread it and was puzzled why Danny was in a crowd of his adversaries. Only the context makes it make sense. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 9:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heaven-forbid-grammatical-mistake-in-the-new-yorker/760399/9 "2016-07-20T09:11:26Z")
> [@bob\_2](#): > > I’m sorry, I don’t agree. It is, at best, ambiguous. It is certainly bad writing as I misread it and was puzzled why Danny was in a crowd of his adversaries. Only the context makes it make sense. You are right. “His own” makes me think of reflexive verbs in French (I’m not sure if “reflexive” technically applies here). If the sentence contains the phrase “hidden among his own adversaries”, this must mean, regardless of context, that the (male) person hidden is among his adversaries. Not that the person he didn’t see is hidden among them. Get rid of the “own” and you can argue it, although it is then still ambiguous. ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 9:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heaven-forbid-grammatical-mistake-in-the-new-yorker/760399/10 "2016-07-20T09:23:11Z")
I can see the problem but I’m not sure what it is. If the sentence read “I waved to him, but he didn’t seem to see me, hidden there in the crowd,” it would not present any problems. If the phrase “hidden there in the crowd of his adversaries,” was added to describe the crowd again no problem. But what purpose does the word “own” achieve? Is it to contrast this group with a group of someone else’s adversaries? Even **wolfpup** in praising the writing leaves the word out. ETA 12 minutes to type that??? ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 10:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heaven-forbid-grammatical-mistake-in-the-new-yorker/760399/11 "2016-07-20T10:11:57Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > No. Again, the sentence is perfectly correct. > … > The participial phrase “hidden there in the crowd of his adversaries” should logically refer to the immediately preceding noun, “me”, the writer. As indeed it does. The writer, having crossed the street to join the Hillary group, was now amongst Danny’s adversaries. He waved to Danny, but Danny couldn’t see him. > > Not just correct, but good, clear writing. It’s the _New Yorker_. 🙂 It’s funny that, when you quote the sentence you say is perfectly correct and clear, you omit the very word that **PatrickLondon** highlights as the problem. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 10:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heaven-forbid-grammatical-mistake-in-the-new-yorker/760399/12 "2016-07-20T10:38:31Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > The participial phrase “hidden there in the crowd of his adversaries” should logically refer to the immediately preceding noun, “me”, the writer. As indeed it does. The writer, having crossed the street to join the Hillary group, was now amongst Danny’s adversaries. He waved to Danny, but Danny couldn’t see him. > > Not just correct, but good, clear writing. It’s the _New Yorker_. 🙂 I agree on what you’ve quoted, but, as I said the OP’s version has “his own”, which is what created ambiguity in my mind. As you quote it, you’re absolutely right. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heaven-forbid-grammatical-mistake-in-the-new-yorker/760399/13 "2016-07-20T11:44:53Z")
> [@don\_t\_ask](#): > > Even **wolfpup** in praising the writing leaves the word out. > [@Peremensoe](#): > > It’s funny that, when you quote the sentence you say is perfectly correct and clear, you omit the very word that **PatrickLondon** highlights as the problem. > [@PatrickLondon](#): > > I agree on what you’ve quoted, but, as I said the OP’s version has “his own”, which is what created ambiguity in my mind. As you quote it, you’re absolutely right. I didn’t “leave the word out”, [I quoted the original article](http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/07/11/george-saunders-goes-to-trump-rallies). The extraneous word “own” was a misquote by the OP. I even checked the _New Yorker_ archives of the print edition, and it was identical to the online article. For the reasons cited and in conformance with any possible rational rules of grammar, “hidden there in the crowd of his adversaries” should and does refer to “me”, the writer. “Him” clearly refers to the Trump supporter Danny, and whether you refer to the opposition crowd on the other side of the street as “his adversaries” or “his own adversaries” makes no difference to the meaning. I would use the added “own” if I wanted to emphasize a sort of mild irony in the fact that Danny couldn’t see me because the very people he was so opposed to were so numerous that I was no longer distinguishable in the crowd. Other than this nuance of meaning, there is no difference, and the _New Yorker_ is, as it almost always is, correct and clear in its writing. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heaven-forbid-grammatical-mistake-in-the-new-yorker/760399/14 "2016-07-20T11:48:00Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > I didn’t “leave the word out”, [I quoted the original article](http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/07/11/george-saunders-goes-to-trump-rallies). The extraneous word “own” was a misquote by the OP. Oh, well, good for Saunders and the _New Yorker_ then. (I had read the article already and not noticed a problem, so this is good news all round.) The discussion in the thread was about the construction in the OP though, and you are now explicitly defending _that_. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heaven-forbid-grammatical-mistake-in-the-new-yorker/760399/15 "2016-07-20T11:57:19Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > The discussion in the thread was about the construction in the OP though, and you are now explicitly defending _that_. Well, the thread title seemed to suggest that the discussion was all about the _New Yorker_ getting it wrong. But besides the OP misquote, I maintain that the addition of the emphasizing adjective makes no difference to the grammatical correctness or the meaning. Both versions are just fine. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heaven-forbid-grammatical-mistake-in-the-new-yorker/760399/16 "2016-07-20T12:10:37Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > Oh, well, good for Saunders and the _New Yorker_ then. (I had read the article already and not noticed a problem, so this is good news all round.) > > The discussion in the thread was about the construction in the OP though, and you are now explicitly defending _that_. Yes, which is very strange. _TNY_ is off the hook, while **wolfpup** has inexplicably chosen to get _on_ the same hook. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heaven-forbid-grammatical-mistake-in-the-new-yorker/760399/17 "2016-07-20T12:30:49Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Yes, which is very strange. _TNY_ is off the hook, while **wolfpup** has inexplicably chosen to get _on_ the same hook. Your English skills are severely lacking. There is no substantive difference between “I drove here in my car” versus “I drove here in my _ **own** _ car” except in emphasis. The only thing that would substantively change the meaning of the above-quoted statement is substituting “my” for “his”. To me the _New Yorker_ statement reads naturally and clearly with or without the “own”, though on reflection I would omit the word simply because it doesn’t add anything useful. ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heaven-forbid-grammatical-mistake-in-the-new-yorker/760399/18 "2016-07-20T12:47:20Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > There is no substantive difference between “I drove here in my car” versus “I drove here in my _ **own** _ car” except in emphasis Again I think the addition of “own” changes the meaning. “I drove here in my car,” would be an appropriate response to, “How did you get here?” Not so much with the latter construction which would more appropriately answer, “Whose car did you drive here?” ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heaven-forbid-grammatical-mistake-in-the-new-yorker/760399/19 "2016-07-20T13:48:36Z")
> [@don\_t\_ask](#): > > Again I think the addition of “own” changes the meaning. “I drove here in my car,” would be an appropriate response to, “How did you get here?” Not so much with the latter construction which would more appropriately answer, “Whose car did you drive here?” I see that my effort to dig up the actual correct _New Yorker_ text to resolve this stupid argument (you’re welcome) have come to naught, and this will digress into the inevitable bickering on completely unrelated matters. Sigh! No, you are wrong, and you’re wrong with respect to what “meaning” is as a method of communicating information. “I drove here in my car” and “I drove here in my own car” have the same meaning, and if you doubt that, consider what the meaning of “my” is and ask a judge how he would determine the two sentences to have different meanings if submitted as testimony in a murder trial. There is only a difference in emphasis. “I drove here in my car” emphasizes a means of transportation, “I drove here in my own car” adds emphasis to the ownership aspect, the sort of thing one might expect from a teenager who just acquired his own car and driver’s license and wishes to stress the fact, but the meaning is substantively the same. As opposed, say, to “I drove here in the victim’s car”. 😃 So: 1. The actual _New Yorker_ text was grammatically correct and clear. 2. The misquote with “own” mistakenly inserted would still be correct, but the word wouldn’t add any useful meaning. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heaven-forbid-grammatical-mistake-in-the-new-yorker/760399/20 "2016-07-20T14:15:53Z")
> [@don\_t\_ask](#): > > Again I think the addition of “own” changes the meaning. “I drove here in my car,” would be an appropriate response to, “How did you get here?” Not so much with the latter construction which would more appropriately answer, “Whose car did you drive here?” It sounds fine to me. The “own” just makes it emphatic to me, you’re underscoring your ownership of a car. For example, if you’re a proud new owner of your first automobile, you might respond with an enthusiastic “I drove here in my own car” to the first sentence. Or perhaps if you and your wife share a couple vehicles, but one is really hers and one is yours, you might say “I drove here in my own car” to disambiguate the communal property. The meaning of the two sentences is essentially the same, the “own” just underscores the ownership. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heaven-forbid-grammatical-mistake-in-the-new-yorker/760399.md?page=2)