# Heaven now, or Heaven later(Christians Only) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 24, 2008, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heaven-now-or-heaven-later-christians-only/446681 "2008-04-24T14:53:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2008, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heaven-now-or-heaven-later-christians-only/446681/41 "2008-04-28T11:24:03Z")
[QUOTE=Czarcasm] But what about the point of view of the people left behind? If your child says,“Is Grandpa in Heaven right now?”, what do you think the correct(in your opinion) answer is? [/QUOTE] I’m not even sure there could be a simple yes or no answer that would be technically correct in the scenario I described. If Doctor Who enters his TARDIS and disappears off to the 37th century, is he, from the POV of those of us left behind, in the 37th century _right now_? ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2008, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heaven-now-or-heaven-later-christians-only/446681/42 "2008-04-28T13:53:31Z")
What happens to all the people who lived and died before Jesus was born? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2008, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heaven-now-or-heaven-later-christians-only/446681/43 "2008-04-28T14:57:28Z")
The popular interpretation of scripture is that, while His body was entombed, He ministered to them, and those who wished to followed Him to Heaven. (Recall that the spirit of a man, which is his essence Christianly speaking, does not die.) ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2008, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heaven-now-or-heaven-later-christians-only/446681/44 "2008-04-28T18:03:38Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] The popular interpretation of scripture is that, while His body was entombed, He ministered to them, and those who wished to followed Him to Heaven. (Recall that the spirit of a man, which is his essence Christianly speaking, does not die.) [/QUOTE] > **[Harrowing of Hell](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrowing_of_Hell)** > > God > > Schools > Relations with: ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2008, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heaven-now-or-heaven-later-christians-only/446681/45 "2008-04-29T04:19:21Z")
> [@](#): > > **Czarcasm** : If your child says,“Is Grandpa in Heaven right now?”, what do you think the correct(in your opinion) answer is? If I talk too much about my beliefs about the spirit, I start to sound “airy fairy” and that only leads to misunderstanding and ridicule. Suffice it to say that my beliefs have to do with something that exists beyond time – so I don’t think it terms of it _will_ exist beyond time. So I guess the correct answer would be: “I believe so. I believe that everybody goes to heaven because God loves everybody and always has. What do you believe?” ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2008, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heaven-now-or-heaven-later-christians-only/446681/46 "2008-04-29T19:47:31Z")
I take this statement as definitive-the proclamation meant that henceforth, heaven is available to all who seek it. Ergo, Heaven is in the ‘here and now’-you just need to recognize it 9and act accordingly). ---
**Author:** ![HubZilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ccd318/32.png) [@HubZilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HubZilla)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2008, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heaven-now-or-heaven-later-christians-only/446681/47 "2008-04-29T20:11:08Z")
[QUOTE=Czarcasm] Do people go to Heaven(or ascend, whatever you want to call it) when they die, or are will they be gathered up upon the return of Jesus? [/QUOTE] I’ve heard that when you go to heaven, you are no longer in Earth time. So that return of Jesus has already happened. Something like God can see all time as one instance, including future events. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2008, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heaven-now-or-heaven-later-christians-only/446681/48 "2008-04-29T20:22:26Z")
[QUOTE=HubZilla] I’ve heard that when you go to heaven, you are no longer in Earth time. So that return of Jesus has already happened. Something like God can see all time as one instance, including future events. [/QUOTE] Just as one would expect of an eternal being. For God, the universe has not yet begun, is ongoing, and is finished — all at once. ---
**Author:** ![JohnnieEnigma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/dfb087/32.png) [@JohnnieEnigma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnnieEnigma)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2008, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heaven-now-or-heaven-later-christians-only/446681/49 "2008-04-29T22:06:30Z")
it depends on the condition of the person’s soul. According to Catholics, if there are some sins on your soul, you need to do time in purgatory. Which is good since there is hope - Purgatory means that you’ll eventually end up in heaven. I’m not sure about non-Catholic christians - I think they believe that Christ died for us and that’s all that’s needed, that they are automatically ‘saved’ no matter what they’ve done in their lives… ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2008, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heaven-now-or-heaven-later-christians-only/446681/50 "2008-04-29T22:58:57Z")
[QUOTE=JohnnieEnigma] it depends on the condition of the person’s soul. According to Catholics, if there are some sins on your soul, you need to do time in purgatory. Which is good since there is hope - Purgatory means that you’ll eventually end up in heaven. I’m not sure about non-Catholic christians - I think they believe that Christ died for us and that’s all that’s needed, that they are automatically ‘saved’ no matter what they’ve done in their lives… [/QUOTE] I’m not sure you are correct on either part. Are you Catholic or non-Catholic Christian? ---
**Author:** ![JohnnieEnigma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/dfb087/32.png) [@JohnnieEnigma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnnieEnigma)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2008, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heaven-now-or-heaven-later-christians-only/446681/51 "2008-04-30T02:15:09Z")
[QUOTE=Czarcasm] I’m not sure you are correct on either part. Are you Catholic or non-Catholic Christian? [/QUOTE] I’m a Catholic… I could be wrong about the non-Catholic christian beliefs - I have no idea what protestants believe, except that they protested something within the Catholic church. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2008, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heaven-now-or-heaven-later-christians-only/446681/52 "2008-04-30T08:01:02Z")
[QUOTE=JohnnieEnigma] I’m a Catholic… I could be wrong about the non-Catholic christian beliefs - I have no idea what protestants believe, except that they protested something within the Catholic church. [/QUOTE] We protested a whole [bunch](http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/web/ninetyfive.html) of stuff, as I understand it, though I’d be lying if I said I’d ever studied Luther’s theses. 🙂 In general Protestants reject the doctrine of Purgatory, which in any case has no effect on whether someone is saved or not - only on what must happen to those who are saved. Whether someone is saved by faith alone or by works is a matter of dispute between various Protestant churches, but that’s a whole 'nother diet of worms. **Czarcasm** , I thought that **JE** articulated the belief concerning Purgatory briefly but correctly. As the name of the place implies, it’s a place of cleansing - according to tradition it is highly unpleasant but bearable and limited. Cardinal Newman put the following words into the mouth of the Angel at the close of his _Dream of Gerontius_ - he is addressing the Soul on delivering same to Purgatory: > [@Gerontius's Guardian Angel](#): > > Angels, to whom the willing charge is given, > Shall tend and nurse and lull thee as thou liest; > And masses said on Earth, and prayers in Heaven > Shall aid thee at the Throne of the Most Highest. > > Farewell, but not for ever, brother dear! > Be brave and patient on thy bed of sorrow; > Swiftly shall pass thy night of trial here > And I will come and wake thee on the morrow. (Gerontius has already endured the judgement of God. He greatly desires to return to the Presence but the instantaneous exposure he has already had was almost enough to destroy him. Purgatory will ensure that he can enjoy God’s perfect radiance without further harm or pain.) The saved and sinless go straight to Heaven; the rank and file, to Purgatory; the unsaved but innocent go to Limbo, which is pleasant enough but lacks the fulfilment of enjoying God’s Presence; and the rest… but you’re ahead of me. But most Protestants rate the afterlife as simpler than this model. While we’re sticking with _Gerontius_, which AIUI Cardinal Newman wrote quite in accordance with Catholic doctrine, the OP is addressed by the note that the Angel took the Soul to judgement within a few microseconds of death, though it seemed longer from the Soul’s now-timeless perspective - long enough for a conversation with the Angel and a guided tour of the outer circles of Heaven, the various ranks of celestial choirs, the Judgement Court itself and a look at the sombre Angel of the Agony (whose duty is to remind God Himself of the night in Gethsemane when he knew what it was to be alone and afraid). As for what _I_ believe… I don’t believe it’s important to know, or will make a difference to me. Is Granny in Heaven right now? If the child is old enough to understand an answer like “I don’t think our _now_ and Heaven’s _now_ is the same”, well and good. Otherwise one of the lies-to-children that we use for other complex questions will have to serve temporarily. 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heaven-now-or-heaven-later-christians-only/446681.md?page=2)