# Heavener Runestone: authentic or BS? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 24, 2000, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heavener-runestone-authentic-or-bs/23378 "2000-06-24T01:40:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 7\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heavener-runestone-authentic-or-bs/23378/21 "2014-03-27T22:26:44Z")
Well, as long as we’re resurrecting threads from 14 years ago, I guess I’ll point out that there _has_ been some legitimate research done in the interim. [Sayeth Wikipedia;](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavener_Runestone) > [@](#): > > Archaeologist Ken Feder notes that unlike the situation in eastern Canada where evidence has been found that proves a Norse presence, nothing similar has been found anywhere near Heavener or even in the American Midwest. He suggests that “it is unlikely that the Norse would get significantly more fastidious about leaving any evidence behind of their presence in Oklahoma.” > > Archaeologist Lyle Tompsen in a 2007 Masters Thesis for the University of Leicester (later published in ESOP 29 2011:5-43) examined the rune stone and noted: > 1.There is no cultural evidence of Vikings in or near the region. > 2.No Old Norse approach to translation fits this stone. > 3.The stones most likely translation is ‘Gnome Dal’ (Valley of the Gnomes). > 4.Scandinavian presence in the nearby town of Heavener is early and the likeliest source of the carving of the stone. > 5.Other purported rune stones in the region are modern creations, or misinterpreted Native American rock art. > > “Barring any new evidence, the stone is best considered a modern creation.” ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2014, 8:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heavener-runestone-authentic-or-bs/23378/22 "2014-03-28T08:35:08Z")
Well, here in Minnesota, our [fake runestone](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kensington_Runestone) at least was a reasonable amount of text, not just a single line. And ours was done by someone with at least some understanding of old Norse/Norwegian writing, so it looks reasonably authentic. Besides, Alexandria, Minnesota is a beautiful area, with lakes & forests and nice country for tourists to visit after they get sucked in by this tourist trap – what’s there for tourists to see in Heavener, Oklahoma? ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2014, 8:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heavener-runestone-authentic-or-bs/23378/23 "2014-03-28T08:43:02Z")
Someone needs to start a thread on fakes (objects, phenomena, legends, monsters) that turn into tourism meccas. Ex. Loch Ness, Rosswell, Senora, this place in Oklahoma, various “haunted” sites. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2014, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heavener-runestone-authentic-or-bs/23378/24 "2014-03-28T14:22:47Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > Well, here in Minnesota, our [fake runestone](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kensington_Runestone) at least was a reasonable amount of text, not just a single line. And ours was done by someone with at least some understanding of old Norse/Norwegian writing, so it looks reasonably authentic. While enthusiasts point to the existence of multiple runestones as evidence for Norse expeditions, for the Kensington and Heavener runestones both to be authentic, it requires that Scandinavians either were sending expeditions deep into the heart of North America, far from major rivers, over a period of 600 years without leaving evidence elsewhere; or else that the Oklahoma expedition was using a writing system that had been forgotten for hundreds of years. **Allsherjargo** mentions the Spiro Mounds and supposed Viking artifacts found at these Indian sites. One supposed case was a skeleton buried with copper breastplates (which apparently has now disappeared). Of course, this ignores the fact that Vikings rarely used armor besides iron helmets and iron chain mail, and certainly wouldn’t have used copper. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2014, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heavener-runestone-authentic-or-bs/23378/25 "2014-03-28T14:50:52Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Someone needs to start a thread on fakes (objects, phenomena, legends, monsters) that turn into tourism meccas. Ex. Loch Ness, Rosswell, Senora, this place in Oklahoma, various “haunted” sites. There’s a difference between a fake (something the creators know to be inauthentic) and folklore (something that might well be believed), and fakelore, which is when the former makes the jump to the latter. You are free to lump everything together in the “not true” box if it makes you happy, but describing a local haunting as a “fake” mischaracterizes it. Then again, I would bet that the number of non-local tourists who plan an entire visit around any of these is vanishingly small. ---
**Author:** ![jimbuff314](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c57346/32.png) [@jimbuff314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimbuff314)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2014, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heavener-runestone-authentic-or-bs/23378/26 "2014-03-29T01:04:27Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > Well, here in Minnesota, our [fake runestone](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kensington_Runestone) at least was a reasonable amount of text, not just a single line. And ours was done by someone with at least some understanding of old Norse/Norwegian writing, so it looks reasonably authentic. > > Besides, Alexandria, Minnesota is a beautiful area, with lakes & forests and nice country for tourists to visit after they get sucked in by this tourist trap – what’s there for tourists to see in Heavener, Oklahoma? Okay, I’m willing to grant you that the fakers in Oklahoma were lazy, illiterate (Norse-wise) bastards compared to your Minnesota fakers. But I will not lie idly by and allow you to slander this good town. Lakes? Nearby Wister Lake is quite beautiful and is known as “The Gateway to the Ouachita Mountains”. Never heard of the Ouachitas? Just think of them as the western continuation of the Appalachians. You’ve heard of them perhaps? [Great Smoky Mountain National Park](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Smoky_Mountains_National_Park) and all? Similar scenery, and beauty. Forests? Oh, yeah - you see this one coming, don’cha? Ouachita National Forest. Ouachita National Recreation Trail. And the mountains! Not only beautiful, but heroic. Yes, a while back South America tried to put the moves on our beloved continent and ride over the top of NA. The Ouachitas were where a stop was put to that nonsense. In fact, the Ouchitas were left behind from SA as payment for its intransigence. How are the mountains there in Minnesota? Sawtooths, are they? Charming name. Nice country for tourists to visit? Google [Talimena Scenic Drive](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talimena_Scenic_Drive) and weep that you have never truly known beauty before. Or look at the Talimena Scenic Drive Association’s [webpage](http://www.talimenascenicdrive.com/). Also, for all the preceding - 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2014, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heavener-runestone-authentic-or-bs/23378/27 "2014-03-29T02:41:25Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > There’s a difference between a fake (something the creators know to be inauthentic) and folklore (something that might well be believed), and fakelore, which is when the former makes the jump to the latter. You are free to lump everything together in the “not true” box if it makes you happy, but describing a local haunting as a “fake” mischaracterizes it. > > Then again, I would bet that the number of non-local tourists who plan an entire visit around any of these is vanishingly small. On the “haunted” thing. I was thinking about the B&B’s and Inns that use the stories about ghosts to bring in guests. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heavener-runestone-authentic-or-bs/23378.md?page=1)