# Heavy Metal: a Philosophical Opinion **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 30, 2016, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heavy-metal-a-philosophical-opinion/761264 "2016-07-30T08:18:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2016, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heavy-metal-a-philosophical-opinion/761264/21 "2016-07-30T19:39:30Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > [Turns Out Metal Songs Without Distortion are Just Surf Rock](http://www.metalsucks.net/2015/10/13/turns-metal-songs-without-distortion-just-surf-rock/) Or [smooth jazz](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBmM79YadYM) 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2016, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heavy-metal-a-philosophical-opinion/761264/22 "2016-07-30T20:55:38Z")
> [@Mister\_Rik](#): > > Or [smooth jazz](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBmM79YadYM) 😃 Heh, thought [that](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjt-aYQO5zA) was gonna be the link. Amazing project, very talented guys (and gals). Check 'em out if they ever give a show in your area, they’re a good bizarre time. ---
**Author:** ![Doug\_K](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5ac83/32.png) [@Doug\_K](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doug_K)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2016, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heavy-metal-a-philosophical-opinion/761264/23 "2016-07-30T21:16:17Z")
> [@scabpicker](#): > > Ozzy also bit the head off a bird in a drunken fit. > [@Kobal2](#): > > Once ! He did it once ! And he thought it was a rubber one ! :mad: > 😃 And he didn’t actually bite it. He just put it in his mouth pretending he was going to bite it as a joke. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2016, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heavy-metal-a-philosophical-opinion/761264/24 "2016-07-30T21:57:41Z")
> [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > I guess it depends what you mean by nerds 
 yeah, the first generation of heavy metal was mixed up with a lot of pseudo-intellectual pursuits (folk legends, surreal horror stories, and whatever) but, (as strange it as it may seem today) all that was supposed to be a cool, counterculture thing at the time - something that rebellious college dorm kids would be into. I don’t think any of that became part of “nerd culture” until a generation later. It’s not just that. There’s a common trend among old school metal musicians (and even the new faces !) - many, if not most of them were white collar kids who were going through the motions right until they said “fuck it” at some point, for one reason or another. James Hetfield of \*Metallica, \*who was given piano lessons at 9. Kirk Hammett, that guys who shreds like your life depends on it ? Comic book and horror flick nerd, then he flipped it around to music. David Draiman of \*Disturbed \*went as far a law school before his “fuck that” moment. Till Lindemann’s parents made him an Olympic-level swimmer, then he said “fuck that, I hate that” - and started fronting _Rammstein_. KFK of \*Slayer \*hails from a loving familiy in sunny California and collects reptiles (yes, it’s gnarly - it’s still a collection, and **that’s** nerdy as hell, folks). Tuomas Holopainen of \*Nightwish \*? Piano at 7 then music college. And on, and on. Look up the bio of your favourite leather-clad eagle of fire on wings of steel, chances are better than even his mum’s an English teacher who made him read Ethan Frome when he was a kid. Punk, Rap, vintage blues, even vanilla Rock sometimes - they’re honest to god blue collar genres. Working class tough guys from broken homes and a background of auto shops, repo agencies or steel mills, singing through the hopeless existential despair. Metallists are merely pretending to be them. It’s just for show, but as is true with most things, the imitators are better at it than the real thing :p. And it’s kind of inevitable, really - heavy metal is a complex, technical musical genre, when it comes right down to it. You can’t just impulse buy a six-string in a flea market, twiddle on your own for a few weeks and become the next John Petrucci. That shit relies on a base of serious musical education, whether it’s taught or self taught - either way, that’s heavy duty nerd stuff. Hell, even the \*screaming \*doesn’t come easy - you try and growl for two hours without the right technique. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2016, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heavy-metal-a-philosophical-opinion/761264/25 "2016-07-30T22:29:07Z")
> [@Mister\_Rik](#): > > Yeah, okay, you missed my point. > > So I’ll link the song that inspired my post. This is Skyforger, a metal band from freaking Latvia: > > That is metal in it's truest sense. Heigh Ho! Nobody Home is a better song in that vein. ---
**Author:** ![LC\_Strawhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@LC\_Strawhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LC_Strawhouse)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2016, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heavy-metal-a-philosophical-opinion/761264/26 "2016-07-30T22:39:39Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > It’s not just that. There’s a common trend among old school metal musicians (and even the new faces !) - many, if not most of them were white collar kids who were going through the motions right until they said “fuck it” at some point, for one reason or another. > James Hetfield of \*Metallica, \*who was given piano lessons at 9. Kirk Hammett, that guys who shreds like your life depends on it ? Comic book and horror flick nerd, then he flipped it around to music. David Draiman of \*Disturbed \*went as far a law school before his “fuck that” moment. Till Lindemann’s parents made him an Olympic-level swimmer, then he said “fuck that, I hate that” - and started fronting _Rammstein_. KFK of \*Slayer \*hails from a loving familiy in sunny California and collects reptiles (yes, it’s gnarly - it’s still a collection, and **that’s** nerdy as hell, folks). Tuomas Holopainen of \*Nightwish \*? Piano at 7 then music college. And on, and on. > > Look up the bio of your favourite leather-clad eagle of fire on wings of steel, chances are better than even his mum’s an English teacher who made him read Ethan Frome when he was a kid. > > Punk, Rap, vintage blues, even vanilla Rock sometimes - they’re honest to god blue collar genres. Working class tough guys from broken homes and a background of auto shops, repo agencies or steel mills, singing through the hopeless existential despair. Metallists are merely pretending to be them. It’s just for show, but as is true with most things, the imitators are better at it than the real thing :p. > And it’s kind of inevitable, really - heavy metal is a complex, technical musical genre, when it comes right down to it. You can’t just impulse buy a six-string in a flea market, twiddle on your own for a few weeks and become the next John Petrucci. That shit relies on a base of serious musical education, whether it’s taught or self taught - either way, that’s heavy duty nerd stuff. Hell, even the \*screaming \*doesn’t come easy - you try and growl for two hours without the right technique. I was talking about the fanbase more than the musicians. You might be totally correct that the musicians were spoiled rich intellectual kids playing dress-up, but in the early 1980s there was a real social class divide around this stuff. The people who were actually listening to “Kill 'Em All”, Ride the Lightning, etc in 1984, who went to concerts and had the T-shirts, were tough and working class. Middle and upper-class parents (voiced by Tipper Gore et. al.) emphatically did not want their kids listening to this “talentless garbage”, and their kids would be much more likely to spend their time collecting coins and MAYBE listening to Kraftwerk or Bruce Springsteen or Bryan Adams. (Looking back, it’s almost surreal how convinced parents were in the 80s that their own kids were a heartbeat away from becoming satanists.) ---
**Author:** ![LC\_Strawhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@LC\_Strawhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LC_Strawhouse)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2016, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heavy-metal-a-philosophical-opinion/761264/27 "2016-07-30T22:53:38Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > It’s not just that. There’s a common trend among old school metal musicians (and even the new faces !) - many, if not most of them were white collar kids who were going through the motions right until they said “fuck it” at some point, for one reason or another. In fact, [here’s a video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vs83f1vB0qE) that proves your point about the musicians (though not the fans) 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2016, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heavy-metal-a-philosophical-opinion/761264/28 "2016-07-30T23:25:02Z")
> [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > I was talking about the fanbase more than the musicians. You might be totally correct that the musicians were spoiled rich intellectual kids playing dress-up, but in the early 1980s there was a real social class divide around this stuff. The people who were actually listening to “Kill 'Em All”, Ride the Lightning, etc in 1984, who went to concerts and had the T-shirts, were tough and working class. Middle and upper-class parents (voiced by Tipper Gore et. al.) emphatically did not want their kids listening to this “talentless garbage”, and their kids would be much more likely to spend their time collecting coins and MAYBE listening to Kraftwerk or Bruce Springsteen or Bryan Adams. > > (Looking back, it’s almost surreal how convinced parents were in the 80s that their own kids were a heartbeat away from becoming satanists.) I’ll take your word for it - I was born in 81 myself. 100% silver spoon, too. But I do clearly remember how I got into metal - first it was Nirvana’s \*Smells Like Teen Spirit \*on MTV that I thought was garbage, utter garbage yet I wouldn’t ever switch channels on 'em ; then those weird kids playing \*Metallica \*on their ghetto blaster like stupid antisocial losers one summer
 and then the few nerd friends I had switched schools and I _Hit The Lights_ good and proper when I wasn’t on the NES (luxury !). Got the shirts and the 'tude even though I weighed (and still weigh) like 60 pounds all wet, tops. Still wear those shirts, even though I mellowed out since :D. The weird thing is, it bothered my parents a lot less than other music I listened to back then, like [60s French anarchist folk singers](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4x6dvXSOSD8) and the like. I guess they knew these guys but not those guys ? :). Hell, I “converted” my mum to _Nightwish_. Now \*that’s \*not\_rebellion 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Channing\_Idaho\_Banks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/channing_idaho_banks/32/250_2.png) [@Channing\_Idaho\_Banks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Channing_Idaho_Banks)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2016, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heavy-metal-a-philosophical-opinion/761264/29 "2016-07-30T23:55:52Z")
> [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > The people who were actually listening to “Kill 'Em All”, Ride the Lightning, etc in 1984, who went to concerts and had the T-shirts, were tough and working class. Middle and upper-class parents (voiced by Tipper Gore et. al.) emphatically did not want their kids listening to this “talentless garbage”, and their kids would be much more likely to spend their time collecting coins and MAYBE listening to Kraftwerk or Bruce Springsteen or Bryan Adams. I had Kill Em All in 1984 when I was in high school, and I went to an upper-middle-class high school and both of my parents are professionals, and I went to college. All of the kids in my school, regardless of what they listened to, including the metal heads, come from upper middle class families . Class really has nothing to do with what kind of music you listen to, unless your parents make you go to the Opera. > [@](#): > > (Looking back, it’s almost surreal how convinced parents were in the 80s that their own kids were a heartbeat away from becoming satanists.) This isn’t true either. It was all just stupid Tipper Gore and Pat Robertson. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2016, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heavy-metal-a-philosophical-opinion/761264/30 "2016-07-31T00:08:19Z")
Wasn’t Matellica a cult band among tape traders and fanzine readers and true believers? Working class kids weren’t the first adopters. ---
**Author:** ![LC\_Strawhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@LC\_Strawhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LC_Strawhouse)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2016, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heavy-metal-a-philosophical-opinion/761264/31 "2016-07-31T00:30:35Z")
> [@Channing\_Idaho\_Banks](#): > > I had Kill Em All in 1984 when I was in high school, and I went to an upper-middle-class high school and both of my parents are professionals, and I went to college. All of the kids in my school, regardless of what they listened to, including the metal heads, come from upper middle class families . Class really has nothing to do with what kind of music you listen to, unless your parents make you go to the Opera. > > This isn’t true either. It was all just stupid Tipper Gore and Pat Robertson. My school was a mix of working/middle/upper class kids, and musical choice was one of the big ways people would brand their identity. One of the first questions you’d get asked by other kids is “who do you listen to?” If a yuppie kid tried to declare themselves a heavy metal fan, they’d get it from both the delinquents and their own parents (I recall a classmate buying an Iron Maiden record and then getting the “what is this shit in my house?” lecture from his father who ordered him to go return it.) This was in Middlesex County, Ontario and yes, all the parents/teachers seemed to agree with Tipper Gore at the time. YMMV. Oh, and now everyone pretends none of that ever happened and they were right there with James Hetfield / Sid Vicious in 1979. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2016, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heavy-metal-a-philosophical-opinion/761264/32 "2016-07-31T02:19:05Z")
> [@Mister\_Rik](#): > > Heavy metal. TRUE heavy metal. > > Most people define “heavy metal” music as loud guitars and a screaming singer. Those people are wrong. In the late 1980s, David Lee Roth, the singer for Van Halen, said: > > “Heavy metal is simply folk music played at high velocity.” > > I read that when I was 18 years old, and I thought it was silly. But I got into my 40s, and remembered that statement, and I realized how correct it was. David Lee Roth was a prophet. Mind you, at the time, “heavy metal” had only been around for 20-odd years. > > “Heavy metal” is not a style of music. It is a way of looking at life. It is taking a look at yourself and the world around yourself, and making a decision to DEFINE yourself. Who am I? How do I interact with the world? Does my interaction with the world make the world a better place? And then DOING something about it. > > There is a popular picture of heavy metal fans: long-haired losers who are probably on drugs. Do you want to know who constitutes most of the fanbase of heavy metal? > > NERDS. > > The heavy metal attitude inspires self-confidence. But not the “self confidence” that is popularly espoused, leading to financial success and romantic/sexual success. It’s the self-confidence that says, “I am good at what I do, and I won’t allow anybody to tell me otherwise, and I am going to be a warrior at what I do!” > > The band that inspired the term, “true metal”, was Manowar. Manowar wrote songs about Vikings and other classic medieval warrior tropes. When asked why he wrote songs like that, Joey DeMaio said, “I would rather have people think of me as a heroic individual, rather than somebody who sings about getting high and screwing every girl in sight.” > > When I was a teenager, there seemed to be a huge divide between people who played “classical” music and those who played “heavy metal” music. Today, they’re the same people. The band nerds who grew up and realized that there really wasn’t that much difference. > > When you’re a teenager, you probably listen to the “pop” music of the day. Because 
 well, I don’t know the “because”. Maybe because you can dance to it. Or maybe because your friends were listening to it. Or because the radio told you that those were the best songs. > > Then you get older, and the songs you actually remember aren’t the ones that made the Top Ten. They were those other songs. That’s why (for those of you who, like me, were teenagers in the 1980s) the “classic rock” station you listen to plays Ozzy and Def Leppard and AC/DC instead of Spandau Ballet and Thomas Dolby. The metal spoke to you in a way that the “pop” didn’t. The metal was timeless. The songs hold up because they spoke to the timeless human condition, not to the “get it now” attitude. Do you realize this is incomprehensible, philosophically and musically? Anyway in re: David Lee Roth and folk music. In 1980 there was a movie called the Decline of Western Civilization. Someone called punk rock “folk” music in that movie. Pete Seeger said Folk music was “anything that folks played” back in the 50s. In the sixties apparently Bob Dylan met Thelonious Monk and told him that he played Folk music. To which Monk replied “I play folk music too” I’ve got to think DLR saw Decline and that rattled around in his head for a long time before coming out. ---
**Author:** ![TipTapTwo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/34f0e0/32.png) [@TipTapTwo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TipTapTwo)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2016, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heavy-metal-a-philosophical-opinion/761264/33 "2016-07-31T05:39:31Z")
My first introduction to heavy metal was from watching _Cowboy Bebop_ at midnight on Toonami, watching space-truckers chase a guy through an asteroid field, with this setting the tone, was formative for me. The Seatbelts – _Live in Baghdad_ [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfz5O4tzf-A](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfz5O4tzf-A) But speaking to your philosophical point, I was impressed by how the scariest performers (looks or lyrically), such as Marylin Manson, often times have the most thoughtful things to say. Such as in his interview on the O’Reilly Factor [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6n5Oi4714o](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6n5Oi4714o) [QUOTE=Kobal2] ï»żNot really though. Black Sabbath weren’t outlaws - if you’ve watched the Osbournes you know Ozzy’s the biggest fuddy duddy in the business. The Prince of Darkness in fuzzy fucking slippers. Bruce Dickinson of _Iron Maiden_ is a history nerd and a commercial airplane pilot while Steve Harris writes his lyrics based on highbrow literature half the time. Brian May of _Queen_ (a band that started as heavy metal - just listen to _Sheer Heart Attack_) has a doctorate in astrophysics and built his own guitar with his dad - awesome and cute, but not screaming “rebel without a pause” [/QUOTE] Speaking to this, has anyone seen the OVA, or read the manga, of _Detroit Metal City_? [Detroit Metal City - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit_Metal_City) It comically humanizes the death metal band members and fans, as it shows them being normal and kind, and generally blundering through life as we all do, after the makeup comes off. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2016, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heavy-metal-a-philosophical-opinion/761264/34 "2016-07-31T14:52:25Z")
[But what _is_ heavy metal](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=237740)? ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2016, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heavy-metal-a-philosophical-opinion/761264/35 "2016-07-31T16:02:04Z")
> [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > I was talking about the fanbase more than the musicians. You might be totally correct that the musicians were spoiled rich intellectual kids playing dress-up, but in the early 1980s there was a real social class divide around this stuff. The people who were actually listening to “Kill 'Em All”, Ride the Lightning, etc in 1984, who went to concerts and had the T-shirts, were tough and working class. Middle and upper-class parents (voiced by Tipper Gore et. al.) emphatically did not want their kids listening to this “talentless garbage”, and their kids would be much more likely to spend their time collecting coins and MAYBE listening to Kraftwerk or Bruce Springsteen or Bryan Adams. > > (Looking back, it’s almost surreal how convinced parents were in the 80s that their own kids were a heartbeat away from becoming satanists.) This is hilariously not reflective of my experience growing up in the era. I was in the Bay Area (Sequoia HS, Redwood City) and we had plenty of Journey, but were also into Maiden, Priest, UFO (Schenker!!) and Metallica. ETA: oh, and Huey Lewis and the News were big hometown heroes, along with Romeo Void, Chris Isaak and others
 ---
**Author:** ![LC\_Strawhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@LC\_Strawhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LC_Strawhouse)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2016, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heavy-metal-a-philosophical-opinion/761264/36 "2016-07-31T16:23:46Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > This is hilariously not reflective of my experience growing up in the era. I was in the Bay Area (Sequoia HS, Redwood City) and we had plenty of Journey, but were also into Maiden, Priest, UFO (Schenker!!) and Metallica. > > ETA: oh, and Huey Lewis and the News were big hometown heroes, along with Romeo Void, Chris Isaak and others
 I guess the U.S. was more laid back than Canada on some cultural issues. Maybe the “problem” in my neck of the woods was that just about everyone was a second-generation immigrant from the U.K. and families seemed to carry around a lot of class-based identity baggage. And it still goes on - I still sometimes see articles like [this](http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/the-abuse-has-become-a-daily-thing-punks-and-goths-hail-overdue-recognition-8559181.html) from the U.K. which make me shake my head
 ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2016, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heavy-metal-a-philosophical-opinion/761264/37 "2016-07-31T17:21:43Z")
Well, I don’t recall anyone being rejected for how rich their parents were in my area. If you like the music, you liked the music. Also, how wealthy you were doesn’t really determine how much of a hardcore delinquent you were, in my experience. I do come from the area where the “affluenza defense” was used, after all. But! I also come from the area where several of my friends have been asked by police if they were satanists due to the stickers on their cars. There really was an effort to tie the music to some imaginary stanic cult network, and some people bought it. It was sort of like how was done with early rock and roll, but more stupid and insidious. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heavy-metal-a-philosophical-opinion/761264.md?page=1)